General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Steel is Real.. Explain?

Old 05-20-19, 12:54 PM
  #76  
86az135i
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 116

Bikes: 1996 Cannondale R900, 2016 Trek Boone

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
I wonder why the author, a proponent of steel, is rolling around on an aluminum wheelset.
86az135i is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:11 PM
  #77  
livedarklions
Je suis Snap Motomag
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 3,825

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; "Motobecane" Fantom CX

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1906 Post(s)
Liked 430 Times in 254 Posts
Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
Plywood, I would not consider to be merely wood. But composed of it yes. But we can argue semantics all day and have fun.

I agree with what you're saying. But people calling CFFP plastic, is a clear attempt to mislead people and derogate the product.
I agree that's the point of a lot of people who do it, but I don't think you're justified in calling them idiots for doing so. It's not a definitively wrong use of the word.
livedarklions is online now  
Old 05-20-19, 01:23 PM
  #78  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,434
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 789 Post(s)
Liked 149 Times in 108 Posts
Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
I wonder why the author, a proponent of steel, is rolling around on an aluminum wheelset.
I freely admit that my Cannondale is objectively "faster" (especially during sprints) than any of my steel bikes, but steel really has the edge in comfort. Plus it's a "mature" product, meaning it's been studied and thought about for well over 100 years, so the technology is extremely well-developed.

If steel really was "faster", every pro in the peloton would be using steel frames, but they don't. There is at least one "ex pro" who does though, and you gotta respect his steel Paramount. He obviously knows his stuff, and absolutely loves the bike:


Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:34 PM
  #79  
goldensprocket
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
I wonder why the author, a proponent of steel, is rolling around on an aluminum wheelset.
...and aluminum axles, titanium saddle rails, carbon fork.
goldensprocket is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:44 PM
  #80  
satrain18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
My entire point is that the idea that it is impossible to make light, strong and stiff steel bikes simply isn't true.


-Tim-[/QUOTE]

Only if you weigh no more than 150-160 lbs. To a heavier person, it's like riding a wet noodle.
satrain18 is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:45 PM
  #81  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,917

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1636 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 57 Times in 48 Posts
I just spent a weekend riding 70 miles of gravel, 5000' up and down on my Peter Mooney as a celebration if it turning 40. Sweet ride! Didn't envy the guys riding their new gravel bikes costing far more; jut their legs that were sometimes ad much younger than my legs as their bikes were. Later this summer my bike will hit 50,000 miles.

In that 40 years, it has done fast club rides, long day rides (130 miles + a few times), up and down mountains. It has crashed. Minor crashes, hard crashes. It's fallen over and hit things. Seen less than gentle treatment from movers. And every time I get on it, I get reminded it is a sweet, sweet ride! (I have two custom ti bikes, so it isn't like the rest of the time I ride crap.)

Now, steel does not mean the "magic" is there. Steel can be done badly. Like any material, the details need to be tailored to a good fit for that rider and use. Still, there is a very long history of steel bikes that were that "magic". Many builders and a quite a few big companies regularly did and do turn out those bikes.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Likes For 79pmooney:
Old 05-20-19, 01:45 PM
  #82  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,441
Mentioned: 163 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8582 Post(s)
Liked 334 Times in 212 Posts
A frame materials thread gets you guys every time. It's like Lucy with the football.
indyfabz is online now  
Old 05-20-19, 01:48 PM
  #83  
satrain18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
.
The only reason why it's so light is because it's a fixed gear, i.e., no derailleurs, extra chainrings, cassette cogs, or shift levers to add weight. Also the fork and handlebars are carbon fiber instead of steel in aluminum respectfully.
Also a 2x11 drivetrain will easily add three or four pounds to the overall weight.
satrain18 is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:54 PM
  #84  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,917

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1636 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 57 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
...and aluminum axles, titanium saddle rails, carbon fork.
It's a matter of the right material for the job. Many bike parts can be built lighter, far more easily and at lower cost in aluminum. (I don't think I have ever owned an aluminum bike axle. To me, that is a place, like QR skewers, where steel is the right material for the job.) Seat rails - ti has more give in this crucial bike/body interface. I'm light and I ride ti railed seats. CF forks - lighter. (That said, I will never own one and and just stick to good steel forks I trust. I've owned a few with sweet rides.)

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:00 PM
  #85  
goldensprocket
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
It's a matter of the right material for the job. Many bike parts can be built lighter, far more easily and at lower cost in aluminum. (I don't think I have ever owned an aluminum bike axle. To me, that is a place, like QR skewers, where steel is the right material for the job.) Seat rails - ti has more give in this crucial bike/body interface. I'm light and I ride ti railed seats. CF forks - lighter. (That said, I will never own one and and just stick to good steel forks I trust. I've owned a few with sweet rides.)

Ben
Context is key. His use of those materials illustrates his hypocrisy.

Ritchey claimed:

"So they don't make springs out of aluminum, they barely make springs out of carbon fibre - they do make some springs out of titanium but with some limitations. But in the same way that a spoke is steel and an axle is steel and a chain is steel and other things on the bike that are important are made of steel - a frame is steel for a reason."

BTW, aluminum axles are ubiquitous, especially on high end hubs. Ritchey claims that the carbon forks offer wider tire clearance.
goldensprocket is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:06 PM
  #86  
satrain18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
My steel '97 Colnago is quite light, and it's not their top-grade steel frame by about two or three levels - you can get a steel frame that's just as light as anything else (within a certain budget of course), but also softens rough roads and makes long sportives more forgiving on your body.

Another "bonus" is maintenance and longevity, you don't have to worry so much about transporting on a rack, press-fit bottom brackets, or overtightening a seatpost binder bolt and cracking something.
What about internal rusting?
satrain18 is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:14 PM
  #87  
Kovkov
Senior Member
 
Kovkov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 262

Bikes: 1957 Alpa Special, 1963 Condor Delta, 1967 Tigra Sprint, 1977 Oltenia, 1987 Mondia, 1965 Staco de luxe, 1969 Amberg

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Slick Madone View Post
It "is" the keepsake of the nostalgia crowd, and horse and buggy refers to people who can't or won't look at modern technology. Exactly what I said.
Depends if modern technology leads to improved products or just to decreasing manufacturing costs.
Kovkov is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:15 PM
  #88  
TimothyH
- Soli Deo Gloria -
 
TimothyH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,135

Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix

Mentioned: 221 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6428 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 217 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
Only if you weigh no more than 150-160 lbs. To a heavier person, it's like riding a wet noodle.

With all due respect, you simply don't know what you are talking about.

This simply isn't true and your statement illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding about the most basic aspects of steel frames made today.

I weigh 175 and my True Temper S3 steel bike is anything but a wet noodle. It is as stiff as any carbon bike made today.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 05-20-19 at 02:19 PM.
TimothyH is offline  
Likes For TimothyH:
Old 05-20-19, 02:18 PM
  #89  
goldensprocket
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I weigh 175 and my True Temper S3 steel bike is anything but a wet noodle. It is as stiff as any carbon bike made today.
So you've ridden every carbon bike made today, right?

Because if you haven't, you're just pulling that "fact" out of your nether regions.
goldensprocket is offline  
Likes For goldensprocket:
Old 05-20-19, 02:22 PM
  #90  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,708
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 366 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by ddeand View Post
I can barely tell the difference in ride and performance between my 1980 Pro Miyata and my 2015 Cannondale CAADX - they feel very similar.
Yes. My steel, aluminum, and carbon bikes ride pretty much the same, because they all fit me the same and have nearly identical geometries: more specifically, nearly identical wheelbases.

If you're used to a steel bike with a sport-touring wheelbase and then ride a carbon bike or an aluminum bike with a shorter wheelbase, you're likely to think that the frame material is responsible for the very different feel of the bike, but the material has a much smaller effect than the wheelbase.

I've owned about a dozen high-end steel racing bikes over the years, and I still have one 25-year-old Reynolds 853 bike, but I haven't ridden it more than a couple of times since I got my first aluminum bike, 15 years ago. It's a fine bike; I just prefer my aluminum bikes, especially on fast descents, where the handling is delightfully predictable.

Finally, since this is turning into a lengthy steel-versus-carbon-versus-aluminum thread, including the usual claims about steel's near-invincibility, here's that 1997 German Tour magazine fatigue test of a number of different frames and different frame materials (spoiler: all the steel frames [and both titanium frames] cracked; the frames that did not crack were all either carbon or aluminum).

Last edited by Trakhak; 05-20-19 at 02:34 PM.
Trakhak is offline  
Likes For Trakhak:
Old 05-20-19, 02:26 PM
  #91  
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,620

Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaña pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 462 Post(s)
Liked 24 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Now? It's been the thing for decades.

If you do a Google search on "steel is real" quote, the first result up is dated 2005.

Plus of course, bicycles have been built out of steel since ... well ... pretty much the beginning. Seriously, read some history!
https://gearpatrol.com/2015/05/20/wh...s-still-great/


And steel doesn't have to be heavy.
I'm a steel fan, but that article isn't serious IMO... it says of 2014 CF frames that they "exploded on impact" and double and triple butted steel tubes are "new frame building techniques".
Reynolds is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:33 PM
  #92  
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,620

Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaña pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 462 Post(s)
Liked 24 Times in 20 Posts
Maybe the word shouldn't be "real" - some of us like steel frames, especially classic ones, for other reasons, like aesthetics (thin straight tubes, horizontal top tubes, lugs) and tradition (with more than 150 years of steel bicycles). Valid reasons IMO.
Reynolds is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:39 PM
  #93  
base2 
Senior Member
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 972

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
Only if you weigh no more than 150-160 lbs. To a heavier person, it's like riding a wet noodle.
I weigh 200, and had a bike built for crossing any road on any continent carrying 100 pounds of stuff & it is a 3 pound frame & lighter than most carbon.

Vari-Wall ThermLX tubing.

It rides like a Cadillac.

Steel is real.

The rest of the weight is component selection. I assure you, what Tim says is true. I've ridden their sub 14 pound Outlaw & it's amazing. They have one on display & it's one of their most popular bikes.
base2 is offline  
Likes For base2:
Old 05-20-19, 02:41 PM
  #94  
ridelikeaturtle
Senior Member
 
ridelikeaturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 663

Bikes: Bianchi Ti Megatube, M Alloy Pro, Sprint 76; Amp Research B4; Colnago Crystal; Klein Pulse; Litespeed Catalyst

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 295 Post(s)
Liked 37 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
What about internal rusting?
What about it? Do you store your bike underwater?
ridelikeaturtle is online now  
Likes For ridelikeaturtle:
Old 05-20-19, 02:47 PM
  #95  
wolfchild
Senior Member
 
wolfchild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 5,545

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1333 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
What about internal rusting?
I sprayed some rust proofing oil inside my steel frames because I ride all year round in all weather conditions...Cro- moly steel is pretty rust resistant and will last a very long time even without rustproofing. I've never seen a steel bicycle rust out.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:48 PM
  #96  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,289

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 142 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
I wonder why the author, a proponent of steel, is rolling around on an aluminum wheelset.
Because the benefit of a material for one thing doesnt mean its a benefit for all other things?
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:50 PM
  #97  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,289

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 142 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
My entire point is that the idea that it is impossible to make light, strong and stiff steel bikes simply isn't true.


-Tim-
Only if you weigh no more than 150-160 lbs. To a heavier person, it's like riding a wet noodle.[/QUOTE]

I am 240# and havent found riding steel frame and fork bikes to be like riding a wet noodle. This goes for traditional diameter tubing and OS tubing. I own a lot of steel road, gravel, and touring bikes that are from the 80s, 90s, and present. I am 6'5 too, so the diamond frames are large too, which doesnt help things.


We all ride differently though. Perhaps my output isnt close to yours. Just saying that weight neednt be a reason to not ride a steel frame bike.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:53 PM
  #98  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,289

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 142 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
What about internal rusting?
Ill update you in this thread the first time this actually affects me. Dont wait up.
Also- a large % of Taiwan built steel frames are ED dipped to prevent rust. Others are zinc base coated. And then there is just the low odds of a frame being affected by internal rusting. If it is affected by internal rusting, its due to a lack of maintenance.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 02:54 PM
  #99  
86az135i
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 116

Bikes: 1996 Cannondale R900, 2016 Trek Boone

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Because the benefit of a material for one thing doesnt mean its a benefit for all other things?
I'm well aware of that fact. Point is author gave analogies where if were true, you'd think steel should be used more then just the frame.
86az135i is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 03:03 PM
  #100  
Dr.Lou
Senior Member
 
Dr.Lou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
I have neither the time or crayons to explain!
Dr.Lou is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.