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Steel is Real.. Explain?

Old 05-21-19, 01:59 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Yes, the welder would definitely need to be at town or better level.
No disrespect intended. Small shops usually have only stick welders and use to weld 3/16" stock and up IME.
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Old 05-21-19, 02:04 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
No disrespect intended. Small shops usually have only stick welders and use to weld 3/16" stock and up IME.
I was just kidding with you, the point is well-taken. I just thought the phrase "village welder" had a sort of quaint funniness about it.
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Old 05-21-19, 02:18 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Bamboo - the material for you:

I see a steel fork and rear stays.
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Old 05-21-19, 02:41 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
But most people donít buy steel bikes because they are ďstiffĒ.
I did, and had it made by a custom builder from S3 tubes.

It's just the way I want it, a very sporty ride, but not bone jarring.


Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
As others have pointed out, you have to spend a lot of money to get a light steel frame.
I never said you don't. In fact, I mentioned high-end tubes and custom built several times.

My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.


-Tim-
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Old 05-21-19, 02:50 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
They can be but usually arenít. As others have pointed out, you have to spend a lot of money to get a light steel frame. You donít have to spend nearly as much to get a light aluminum frame. Cannondale, for example, introduced the 2.8 series of bikes in 1992. The ď2.8Ē refers to the weight of the frame which was 2.8lb. They point out in their 1992 catalog that an equivalent steel frame of the era would weigh 8lb. Steel bikes have gotten a little lighter (but not much) since then but so has aluminum. Carbon fiber blows both completely out of the water.
How has this gone unresponded to?
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.

No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.

Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
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Old 05-21-19, 03:12 PM
  #156  
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One of the great things about cycling is that you can own multiple bikes. I have owned and loved steel, carbon fiber, and aluminum bikes over the years. Embrace the n+1 way of life, and ride what you want to on a particular day.
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Old 05-21-19, 03:53 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
How has this gone unresponded to?
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.

No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.

Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
While I can't comment on the validity of the statement Cannondale did say in their 1992 catalog, "Aluminum is light, so even though the tubes are immense our frames are among the lightest available at any price of any material; as light as 2.8 pounds on our new 2.8 Series racing frame. A chrome-moly frame with the same dimensions would weigh almost eight pounds."

The paragraph prior states how oversized tubing yields superior flex resistance. So maybe Cannondale is referencing if they made the same 2.8 frame with steel, with the same tube diameter and wall thickness, it would weight 8 pounds.
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Old 05-21-19, 03:57 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by HarborBandS View Post
One of the great things about cycling is that you can own multiple bikes. I have owned and loved steel, carbon fiber, and aluminum bikes over the years. Embrace the n+1 way of life, and ride what you want to on a particular day.
There is no room for reasonableness in these types of discussions. Pick a side and defend it to the death!

... or until a chain lube thread comes along.
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Old 05-21-19, 04:00 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by 86az135i View Post
So maybe Cannondale is referencing if they made the same 2.8 frame with steel, with the same tube diameter and wall thickness, it would weight 8 pounds.
Sure, but that would be an extremely silly comparison. Such a frame would be three times stiffer than the aluminum frame.
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Old 05-21-19, 04:22 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
All it takes is the right builder and a budget.
A $2,474‬ budget just for a track frame and fork:
https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/track/track-main.html
https://www.rodbikes.com/frames.html

On the other hand this is just $2,000 and UCI legal:
https://www.fujibikes.com/usa/bikes/...ck-elite-frame
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Old 05-21-19, 07:35 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
No disrespect intended. Small shops usually have only stick welders and use to weld 3/16" stock and up IME.
I had a broken mountain bike repaired back in the 80s. The guy doing the repair is a master welder who has tons of experience welding scientific equipment and knows how to do delicate work. His comment when he welded the frame was that the steel is so thin it would be incredibly easy to burn through.

He has also welded an aluminum frames that I managed to break. He had zero problems with it.
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Old 05-21-19, 08:06 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I did, and had it made by a custom builder from S3 tubes.

It's just the way I want it, a very sporty ride, but not bone jarring.
That, however, isnít what most people gush about when it comes to steel frames. They go on about how compliant the ride is. Those bikes arenít built like yours.

I never said you don't. In fact, I mentioned high-end tubes and custom built several times.

My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.


-Tim-
Those statement do apply to most steel bikes. You canít compare a purpose made, custom bike to a production bike. Compare cheese to cheese, not cheese to chalk.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
How has this gone unresponded to?
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.

No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.

Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
Having ridden many bikes from that era and having worked on and handled even more at my local co-op, I donít find Cannondaleís claim to be invalid. Aluminum didnít almost completely displace steel in the 90s and early 2000s by not providing a distinct advantage over steel. Carbon has displace aluminum similarly by doing the same.
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Old 05-21-19, 08:12 PM
  #163  
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I own a steel fixed gear bike in a 61 and it weighs 19 lbs. with brakes front and rear. Steel bikes, if designed well, are really smooth riding bikes. My Wabi steel fixed gear bike is the most comfortable bike I have ever own for over 50 years...and I've owned some really fine bikes. It glides over bumps and rough road like a cloud. The second most comfortable bike is in a distant second place to the Wabi.

I've owned aluminum bikes also and I think they have a harsher ride than steel. I've only ridden a carbon bike once and I didn't like it so I won't give an opinion on ride quality. Just didn't like it enough to buy it.


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Old 05-21-19, 08:50 PM
  #164  
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It isn't so much that steel is real.

Rather, it is that carbon is fake, and aluminum (which is abbreviated Al, not Alu, blows huge green gnarly chunks of spew).

Also, steel has carbon in it, and it is an alloy. So you lose nothing in terms of bragging rights.

The weight difference is the difference between a full and empty bottle, or a full and empty bladder (CamelBack or human).
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Old 05-21-19, 08:53 PM
  #165  
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Steel is like butter, man.

You wouldn't catch Julia Child without it.
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Old 05-21-19, 10:11 PM
  #166  
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never heard of ****nyms ?
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Old 05-21-19, 10:42 PM
  #167  
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Plastic is fantastic

Epoxy is the moxy

Fiber is to die fer
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Old 05-21-19, 10:58 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
never heard of ****nyms ?
Metaphors, have I yes!
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Old 05-22-19, 12:16 AM
  #169  
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Steel is real-ly pretty?
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Old 05-22-19, 01:21 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Steel is like butter, man.

You wouldn't catch Julia Child without it.
Heheh, heh.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:44 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
There is no room for reasonableness in these types of discussions. Pick a side and defend it to the death!

... or until a chain lube thread comes along.
Fine. I can reduce this to jingoistic (sort of) rhyming sound bites.

Steel is real, aluminum's a hooligan, and carbon fiber is a garbage fire.

There.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:58 AM
  #172  
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To reiterate what some have mentioned, most trained welders have access to OA torches and know how to use them. The key is trained welders but many people start off brazing before welding. My son had to become proficient in many techniques including welding steel with O-A torches. I can braze with bronze all day long, but that damned O-A steel welding really bites me in the backside every time.

On a side note.
Along with cycling and other pursuits, I am also in the midst of a Jaguar restoration. E-Types have a monocoque body with a frame that bolts to it in several places. Due the special alloys that were used and the fact that they do rust, new people on forums often ask about just welding in new pieces. It must be brazed and not gotten too hot or it becomes a safety hazard. So people are forced to find shops where the welders actually understand how to work with the materials.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:59 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Having ridden many bikes from that era and having worked on and handled even more at my local co-op, I donít find Cannondaleís claim to be invalid. Aluminum didnít almost completely displace steel in the 90s and early 2000s by not providing a distinct advantage over steel. Carbon has displace aluminum similarly by doing the same.
You dont find Cdale's claim to be invalid? What?!?! Find me an equivalent bike to the 2.8 model from that era with a frame that weighs anything close to 8#. I can save you time- you wont find one because one doesnt exist. It there is one from that era, then it isnt equivalent in level to the 2.8 so it isnt comparable.
I actually provided a real example that is an equivalent frame in steel, and its actually on the heavy side due to size difference, but it still isnt even close to the claimed 8#. Yet you dont find their claim to be invalid.

You look at data all day and clearly thrive on accuracy...except for this instance.
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Old 05-22-19, 09:43 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Couldnt put bar tape on because that would have pushed it over the 20.0 barrier, i guess.
Look again. That carbon fiber glare is murder on your vision.
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Old 05-22-19, 10:19 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
never heard of ****nyms ?

Like "steel" and "steal"?

"steel" and "real" aren't ****nyms, they just rhyme.
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