Steel is Real.. Explain?
#151
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#152
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#153
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I did, and had it made by a custom builder from S3 tubes.
It's just the way I want it, a very sporty ride, but not bone jarring.
I never said you don't. In fact, I mentioned high-end tubes and custom built several times.
My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.
-Tim-
It's just the way I want it, a very sporty ride, but not bone jarring.
My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.
-Tim-
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#154
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They can be but usually aren’t. As others have pointed out, you have to spend a lot of money to get a light steel frame. You don’t have to spend nearly as much to get a light aluminum frame. Cannondale, for example, introduced the 2.8 series of bikes in 1992. The “2.8” refers to the weight of the frame which was 2.8lb. They point out in their 1992 catalog that an equivalent steel frame of the era would weigh 8lb. Steel bikes have gotten a little lighter (but not much) since then but so has aluminum. Carbon fiber blows both completely out of the water.
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.
No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.
Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
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#155
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One of the great things about cycling is that you can own multiple bikes. I have owned and loved steel, carbon fiber, and aluminum bikes over the years. Embrace the n+1 way of life, and ride what you want to on a particular day.
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#156
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How has this gone unresponded to?
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.
No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.
Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.
No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.
Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
The paragraph prior states how oversized tubing yields superior flex resistance. So maybe Cannondale is referencing if they made the same 2.8 frame with steel, with the same tube diameter and wall thickness, it would weight 8 pounds.
#157
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... or until a chain lube thread comes along.
#158
Senior Member
Sure, but that would be an extremely silly comparison. Such a frame would be three times stiffer than the aluminum frame.
#159
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A $2,474 budget just for a track frame and fork:
https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/track/track-main.html
https://www.rodbikes.com/frames.html
On the other hand this is just $2,000 and UCI legal:
https://www.fujibikes.com/usa/bikes/...ck-elite-frame
https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/track/track-main.html
https://www.rodbikes.com/frames.html
On the other hand this is just $2,000 and UCI legal:
https://www.fujibikes.com/usa/bikes/...ck-elite-frame
#160
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He has also welded an aluminum frames that I managed to break. He had zero problems with it.
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#161
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I never said you don't. In fact, I mentioned high-end tubes and custom built several times.
My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.
-Tim-
My point is people making absolute statements such as "steel is flexy" or "steel is heavy." That's not always the case. Steel can be made to have any ride characteristics anyone wants. All it takes is the right builder and a budget.
-Tim-
How has this gone unresponded to?
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.
No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.
Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
...well I guess I can understand that many dont want to go down the rabbit hole that is disagreeing with something in a cycco post.
No chance is this accurate. 2.8#, which is 1270g, is very reasonable for an aluminum frame and I can believe that a 54cm or whatever smaller size weighed that. And equivalent steel frame of that era would not have weighed 8#(3628g). Thats absurd.
As a equal comparison, my '89 Tange 1 frame road bike in 63cm weighs 2210g for the frame and 790 for the fork. So even combined(which isnt what Cannondale was saying), the frame and fork are right at 3000g which is 6.6#. And again, thats in the largest common production size, so a similar sized frame to Cannondale's example would have been even further from Cannondale's claim.
Reality is that similar sized road bikes that would have competed with a 2.8 level Cdale would have weighed about 4.5#. The difference between the Cdale frame and an equal quality steel frame would have been about 750grams which is certainly not insigificant and definitely qualifies as a legitimate advantage that should be marketed, but it isnt close to the 5.2# difference you say Cannondale advertised.
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Stuart Black
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Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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#162
Senior Member
I own a steel fixed gear bike in a 61 and it weighs 19 lbs. with brakes front and rear. Steel bikes, if designed well, are really smooth riding bikes. My Wabi steel fixed gear bike is the most comfortable bike I have ever own for over 50 years...and I've owned some really fine bikes. It glides over bumps and rough road like a cloud. The second most comfortable bike is in a distant second place to the Wabi.
I've owned aluminum bikes also and I think they have a harsher ride than steel. I've only ridden a carbon bike once and I didn't like it so I won't give an opinion on ride quality. Just didn't like it enough to buy it.
--
I've owned aluminum bikes also and I think they have a harsher ride than steel. I've only ridden a carbon bike once and I didn't like it so I won't give an opinion on ride quality. Just didn't like it enough to buy it.
--
Last edited by drlogik; 05-21-19 at 08:25 PM.
#163
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It isn't so much that steel is real.
Rather, it is that carbon is fake, and aluminum (which is abbreviated Al, not Alu, blows huge green gnarly chunks of spew).
Also, steel has carbon in it, and it is an alloy. So you lose nothing in terms of bragging rights.
The weight difference is the difference between a full and empty bottle, or a full and empty bladder (CamelBack or human).
Rather, it is that carbon is fake, and aluminum (which is abbreviated Al, not Alu, blows huge green gnarly chunks of spew).
Also, steel has carbon in it, and it is an alloy. So you lose nothing in terms of bragging rights.
The weight difference is the difference between a full and empty bottle, or a full and empty bladder (CamelBack or human).
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#164
What happened?
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Steel is like butter, man.
You wouldn't catch Julia Child without it.
You wouldn't catch Julia Child without it.
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#166
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Plastic is fantastic
Epoxy is the moxy
Fiber is to die fer
Epoxy is the moxy
Fiber is to die fer
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#170
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Steel is real, aluminum's a hooligan, and carbon fiber is a garbage fire.
There.
#171
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To reiterate what some have mentioned, most trained welders have access to OA torches and know how to use them. The key is trained welders but many people start off brazing before welding. My son had to become proficient in many techniques including welding steel with O-A torches. I can braze with bronze all day long, but that damned O-A steel welding really bites me in the backside every time.
On a side note.
Along with cycling and other pursuits, I am also in the midst of a Jaguar restoration. E-Types have a monocoque body with a frame that bolts to it in several places. Due the special alloys that were used and the fact that they do rust, new people on forums often ask about just welding in new pieces. It must be brazed and not gotten too hot or it becomes a safety hazard. So people are forced to find shops where the welders actually understand how to work with the materials.
On a side note.
Along with cycling and other pursuits, I am also in the midst of a Jaguar restoration. E-Types have a monocoque body with a frame that bolts to it in several places. Due the special alloys that were used and the fact that they do rust, new people on forums often ask about just welding in new pieces. It must be brazed and not gotten too hot or it becomes a safety hazard. So people are forced to find shops where the welders actually understand how to work with the materials.
#172
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Having ridden many bikes from that era and having worked on and handled even more at my local co-op, I don’t find Cannondale’s claim to be invalid. Aluminum didn’t almost completely displace steel in the 90s and early 2000s by not providing a distinct advantage over steel. Carbon has displace aluminum similarly by doing the same.
I actually provided a real example that is an equivalent frame in steel, and its actually on the heavy side due to size difference, but it still isnt even close to the claimed 8#. Yet you dont find their claim to be invalid.
You look at data all day and clearly thrive on accuracy...except for this instance.
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#173
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#174
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#175
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