Steel is Real.. Explain?
#176
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You dont find Cdale's claim to be invalid? What?!?! Find me an equivalent bike to the 2.8 model from that era with a frame that weighs anything close to 8#. I can save you time- you wont find one because one doesnt exist. It there is one from that era, then it isnt equivalent in level to the 2.8 so it isnt comparable.
I actually provided a real example that is an equivalent frame in steel, and its actually on the heavy side due to size difference, but it still isnt even close to the claimed 8#. Yet you dont find their claim to be invalid.
You look at data all day and clearly thrive on accuracy...except for this instance.
I actually provided a real example that is an equivalent frame in steel, and its actually on the heavy side due to size difference, but it still isnt even close to the claimed 8#. Yet you dont find their claim to be invalid.
You look at data all day and clearly thrive on accuracy...except for this instance.
Steel bikes are heavier than aluminum bikes, that is a given. Lightweight aluminum bikes are cheaper than lightweight steel bikes which is why there aren’t that many lightweight steel bikes in shops now. Aluminum put a nail in steel’s coffin and carbon is pounding on the nails for aluminum. The only reasons that carbon hasn’t taken over the market is that it’s not cheap enough. People are working on that.
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#177
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I found a low end Peugeot in the alley behind my house with a sign that said “free to a good home”.
This was from the 70s or 80s and was their beater model. Not their high end race models.
I stripped it and repainted it, did as fine a job as a rattle can can do. Anyway, it was a 6lb frame stripped down. The fork was 800gm. Not light and low end. Never intended to be anywhere near C-dales flagship. And it was still lighter than the claim.
Unless you went out of your way to add extra metal to the bike (like those looong cargo things), I doubt you can get up to 8lbs for a frame.
This was from the 70s or 80s and was their beater model. Not their high end race models.
I stripped it and repainted it, did as fine a job as a rattle can can do. Anyway, it was a 6lb frame stripped down. The fork was 800gm. Not light and low end. Never intended to be anywhere near C-dales flagship. And it was still lighter than the claim.
Unless you went out of your way to add extra metal to the bike (like those looong cargo things), I doubt you can get up to 8lbs for a frame.
#178
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You gave one example. That’s not “data”. I have no idea what the cost of the bike you are comparing nor if it was a custom or production model. I do know there were a lot of production steel bikes back in the early 90s and most of them were rather heavy. Cannondale had something to compare their bikes to and we don’t know what they were using as a comparison.
Steel bikes are heavier than aluminum bikes, that is a given. Lightweight aluminum bikes are cheaper than lightweight steel bikes which is why there aren’t that many lightweight steel bikes in shops now. Aluminum put a nail in steel’s coffin and carbon is pounding on the nails for aluminum. The only reasons that carbon hasn’t taken over the market is that it’s not cheap enough. People are working on that.
Steel bikes are heavier than aluminum bikes, that is a given. Lightweight aluminum bikes are cheaper than lightweight steel bikes which is why there aren’t that many lightweight steel bikes in shops now. Aluminum put a nail in steel’s coffin and carbon is pounding on the nails for aluminum. The only reasons that carbon hasn’t taken over the market is that it’s not cheap enough. People are working on that.
Yes it was just 1 example, but Cdale's claim is completely unfounded to anyone with any knowledge of frame weights and there should not be a need to provide more examples since the one I did provide shows common steel frames of equal quality bikes were lighter.
Here, ill list more that are significantly less than 8 pounds and were all production steel that were from mid-level to upper-level bikes.
- '87 Miyata 912 road bike
- '87 Schwinn Prelude road bike
- '89 Novara Trionfo road bike
- '89 Ironman Expert road bike
- '91 Diamondback Expert TG road bike
- '90 Fuji Saratoga touring bike
- '88 Schwinn Premis road bike
Those are all bikes from the same era that are production made, use quality but not even highest quality steel tubing, and weigh about 5# or less even in the largest common size(63cm, 64c, 25")
You have nothing to support Cannondale's claim, yet you dont find it to be invalid?...why do you find it valid to begin with?
I would honestly be interested to find out what equivalent steel road bike in '92 could have had a frame that weighed 8 pounds.
#180
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I have a 1946 Shelby Traveler that was incredibly light without fenders and such.
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#181
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Riding is real.
Then there is typing, which judging from what I see here consumes more hours of many BF members' days than riding.
I had a Schwinn Suburban for many, many years .... rode it with flat bars, had it converted to drops bars, rode it a lot more. It weighed, I believe, 46 pounds---back when bikes included pedals. Could its frame and fork have weight eight pounds?
Who Freaking Cares?
It was a beast though. No one who ever tried to move it would try to say it wasn't real.
And of course ... i have the Ultimate Answer for All these nonsense threads---
My favorite color is faster than yours, and sounds better.
Then there is typing, which judging from what I see here consumes more hours of many BF members' days than riding.
I had a Schwinn Suburban for many, many years .... rode it with flat bars, had it converted to drops bars, rode it a lot more. It weighed, I believe, 46 pounds---back when bikes included pedals. Could its frame and fork have weight eight pounds?
Who Freaking Cares?
It was a beast though. No one who ever tried to move it would try to say it wasn't real.
And of course ... i have the Ultimate Answer for All these nonsense threads---
My favorite color is faster than yours, and sounds better.
#182
Senior Member
Just weighed the 1950 Bates. The FB hubs on that bike are 1930s. Took off the pump and water bottle. Bottle cage still on it. Pedals and clips and straps. Brooks B.15N Swallow saddle. Steel cranks. Weight was 21.6 pounds. That bike has a unique feature no one has replicated. The Diadrant fork. Reynolds 531 steel with two bends instead of just the one. In static testing that I am not afraid to perform on a fork and frame that is 69 years old about 20mm of travel in that 700 gram fork. So same travel as a Lauf fork but with no moving pieces and a lot less weight. And wonderful steering precision on a fork with lots of travel. That bike started as $200 and with paint job, tubulars, lots of replaced NOS parts still under $1000.
Never weighed the Bates as a bare frame, did weigh the 1958 Rivetts. 23-1/2" frame with 23" top tube, long Campy ends, long stays, paint, fancy lugs. The number was right on 1800 grams, so a touch under 4 pounds.
Yes, factory frames are heavy. So what.
Carbon frames can be built real near 600 grams and if someone has hit that magic number no surprise. Trying that hard with steel gets you to 1000grams. 1100 gram frames happen somewhat routinely with heat treated steel and tig welding. With most any build where weight is one of the considerations steel frames are now around 1500grams. Twenty year ago had a Gunnar Sport w/no special features under 1600. While carbon frames built to the limit can get close to 600, real frames are no place close to that. Plenty of $3K carbon frames are over 1000grams.
Never weighed the Bates as a bare frame, did weigh the 1958 Rivetts. 23-1/2" frame with 23" top tube, long Campy ends, long stays, paint, fancy lugs. The number was right on 1800 grams, so a touch under 4 pounds.
Yes, factory frames are heavy. So what.
Carbon frames can be built real near 600 grams and if someone has hit that magic number no surprise. Trying that hard with steel gets you to 1000grams. 1100 gram frames happen somewhat routinely with heat treated steel and tig welding. With most any build where weight is one of the considerations steel frames are now around 1500grams. Twenty year ago had a Gunnar Sport w/no special features under 1600. While carbon frames built to the limit can get close to 600, real frames are no place close to that. Plenty of $3K carbon frames are over 1000grams.
#183
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Last edited by TimothyH; 05-22-19 at 04:15 PM.
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#184
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#185
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#186
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My '98 Pinarello frame and fork weigh 2700 grams or less than 6 lbs, and this is not a top of the line frame.
Last edited by Reynolds; 05-22-19 at 07:59 PM.
#187
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I wouldn’t touch a frame material thread with a ten foot pole. I will, however, use my eleven foot pole to advance this clarification re: the seemingly ridiculous C’dale “8 lb frame” claim.
C’dale was claiming that a frame made of steel using the same dimensions - tubing lengths AND diameters - would weigh about 8 lbs. Which, while true, is clearly an “apples to oranges” comparison. There is no reason anyone would need to build a steel bicycle frame with tubing diameters comparable to aluminum.
Context is important here. Aluminum was an emerging frame material and to veteran cyclists a bit of education was in order. Large, oversized tubing was required to provide comparable strength, but the look of such oversized tubes gave the impression of oversized weight. C’dale was trying to explain strength, tubing size, and weight to an audience mostly ignorant of the realities.
So it’s true that an exact matching frame made of steel would weigh 8 lbs, but no such frame has ever existed.
-Kedosto
*donning flame resistant suit*
C’dale was claiming that a frame made of steel using the same dimensions - tubing lengths AND diameters - would weigh about 8 lbs. Which, while true, is clearly an “apples to oranges” comparison. There is no reason anyone would need to build a steel bicycle frame with tubing diameters comparable to aluminum.
Context is important here. Aluminum was an emerging frame material and to veteran cyclists a bit of education was in order. Large, oversized tubing was required to provide comparable strength, but the look of such oversized tubes gave the impression of oversized weight. C’dale was trying to explain strength, tubing size, and weight to an audience mostly ignorant of the realities.
So it’s true that an exact matching frame made of steel would weigh 8 lbs, but no such frame has ever existed.
-Kedosto
*donning flame resistant suit*
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#188
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You know, most of the riders of these high-zoot CF Gi-trek-alized China bicycles, their bicycles are, maybe, at very best, a couple of pounds lighter than a steel bicycle, but themselves are typically at least 50 pounds body mass heavier than me at the same approximate height and while their cardio-aerobic engine might be better than mine (now that I am 65 yo), maybe, might be stronger than me, maybe, but subtract that two pounds and I still have a 48 pound advantage over them. Hades, subtract, five pounds, I still have a 45 pound advantage over the typcial guy I see on these things. And, even, if we were the same body mass, is that bicycle weight difference going to really matter anywhwere but climbing straight up a mountain. Just saying, I am rarely last, against people half my age.
Last edited by Loose Chain; 05-22-19 at 08:25 PM.
#189
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How to discuss this topic like a rapper. This is official Dad humour material to drive your teenagers crazy.
Take the hard sound of the word - in this case "eel". Run it through the alphabet abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz to make up some words. Feel, Real, Zeal... then make a story out of them.
Bust some rhymes over dinner for full effect.
So here's the deal.
Steel.
Gotta a smooth kinda feel,
a groovy C&V appeal -
like classic Swayze and J Beal.
Old school roadies keep it real,
maybe with some zeal.
And,
to seal..
the deal..
and end this speel..
in a crash it's easier to heal.
Word.
Granted, it's a lot harder to do that with Aluminum.
Take the hard sound of the word - in this case "eel". Run it through the alphabet abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz to make up some words. Feel, Real, Zeal... then make a story out of them.
Bust some rhymes over dinner for full effect.
So here's the deal.
Steel.
Gotta a smooth kinda feel,
a groovy C&V appeal -
like classic Swayze and J Beal.
Old school roadies keep it real,
maybe with some zeal.
And,
to seal..
the deal..
and end this speel..
in a crash it's easier to heal.
Word.
Granted, it's a lot harder to do that with Aluminum.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-22-19 at 08:59 PM.
#190
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In propery english I have to say steel frames are more funner than carbon.
Vintage frames of all types exist, lot's never ridden and in pristine shape. Mixing and matching old parts to get a nice functional bike is much less money than buying a brand new bike.
The good old steel frames feel like wet noodles and flexy, they lively feel of a well aligned frame can track the road good. Premium steel frames are a very good niche.
Older threaded bottom brackets are a lot easier to service than than this press fit BB standard going on...much less hassle.
I'd rather have an old steel jalopy because I enjoy riding them with various components. They are a hobbyist machine that have so many options.
Standardized Carbon frames with disc brakes have come a long way. But you can't beat the utility of a good steel frame commuter bike.
Vintage frames of all types exist, lot's never ridden and in pristine shape. Mixing and matching old parts to get a nice functional bike is much less money than buying a brand new bike.
The good old steel frames feel like wet noodles and flexy, they lively feel of a well aligned frame can track the road good. Premium steel frames are a very good niche.
Older threaded bottom brackets are a lot easier to service than than this press fit BB standard going on...much less hassle.
I'd rather have an old steel jalopy because I enjoy riding them with various components. They are a hobbyist machine that have so many options.
Standardized Carbon frames with disc brakes have come a long way. But you can't beat the utility of a good steel frame commuter bike.
#191
Senior Member
Well on the commuting thing. I'm currently saving up for a carbon framed fat bike which will serve in large part as a commuter and specifically a winter commuter. The fat bike is obvious for winter commuting because well, some days no other bike can crawl through the snow.
But the reasoning behind the carbon frame is in the extensive salt usage of certain cities in Finland. Carbon doesn't corrode. However we have had several examples of steel and aluminum frames getting chewed through by salt corrosion. At the moment carbon is getting pretty darn affordable and mountain bike carbon is the most durable mountain bike material out there.
As for non salty environtments, it doesn't much matter which material the frame is made of. It'd be a marathon effort to corrode a chromoly frame through with just rainwater.
But the reasoning behind the carbon frame is in the extensive salt usage of certain cities in Finland. Carbon doesn't corrode. However we have had several examples of steel and aluminum frames getting chewed through by salt corrosion. At the moment carbon is getting pretty darn affordable and mountain bike carbon is the most durable mountain bike material out there.
As for non salty environtments, it doesn't much matter which material the frame is made of. It'd be a marathon effort to corrode a chromoly frame through with just rainwater.
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#192
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...which is heavy, considering it is a commuter bike.
#193
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Ever heard of BBInfinite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpsCpp8YlnM
But that's of course not how bearings work. You can't test bearing quality on how long it spins with no load. But generally speaking the one that spins longer or "better" is likely to be the inferior one, because it doesn't have grease or has too little grease or is too loose.
On the other hand, I've had my fair share of press fit bottom brackets as well as threaded. The threaded ones are just easier to deal with. This coming from a touring cyclist who has had to replace a bottom bracket bearing on the road.
I believe press fit works just as well as threaded bottom brackets but they are much more labor intensive, require more tools (which are also more expensive) and requires chemicals that are way more expensive than plain ol' grease (loctite 600-series bearing retaining compound)
The carbon frame I'm looking at does have a threaded bottom bracket. I'd think really hard whether I'd want a press fit one, because then I'd have to invest a sizeable amount on tools again.
Know anybody who has a $632 bottom bracket facing and tapping set in their home garage?
If we did, we'd bring the frame to an LBS that could do it for us. And like head tube facing it's a one time job. Doesn't need to be repeated. Usually good quality frames are faced at the factory. Paint can get in the way though so "facing" can be done with a razor blade or sanding paper. Tapping then is another issue, but never had to do that until now.
#194
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...which is subjective.
...which gets fewer and fewer as time progresses.
Carbon fiber can and have compliance. It's determined by the layup and the geometry. Endurance geometry carbon frames do exist.
Ever heard of BBInfinite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpsCpp8YlnM
Know anybody who has a $632 bottom bracket facing and tapping set in their home garage?
...which is, again, subjective.
...which is heavy, considering it is a commuter bike.
...which gets fewer and fewer as time progresses.
Carbon fiber can and have compliance. It's determined by the layup and the geometry. Endurance geometry carbon frames do exist.
Ever heard of BBInfinite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpsCpp8YlnM
Know anybody who has a $632 bottom bracket facing and tapping set in their home garage?
...which is, again, subjective.
...which is heavy, considering it is a commuter bike.
#196
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I convert all my press-fits to Wheels angular bearings. They are heavier than press-fits but I figure I can rely on them and replace them ... more so than with press-fits.
However, press-fit seems to have overcome most of its initial issues with poor fit, varying rates of expansion, etc. and ar no as reliable as any other BB standard, while being both stronger and lighter than most.
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Ti is fly
*mic drop*
*mic drop*
#198
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When people state their preferences as fact, it is necessary to point out that they are merely opinions ... IMO.
I convert all my press-fits to Wheels angular bearings. They are heavier than press-fits but I figure I can rely on them and replace them ... more so than with press-fits.
However, press-fit seems to have overcome most of its initial issues with poor fit, varying rates of expansion, etc. and ar no as reliable as any other BB standard, while being both stronger and lighter than most.
I convert all my press-fits to Wheels angular bearings. They are heavier than press-fits but I figure I can rely on them and replace them ... more so than with press-fits.
However, press-fit seems to have overcome most of its initial issues with poor fit, varying rates of expansion, etc. and ar no as reliable as any other BB standard, while being both stronger and lighter than most.
The statements that were labeled as subjective (and I paraphrase) were "Steel is funner" and "I'd rather have...."
It was not at all a matter of contest that those are subjective opinions.
I have absolutely nothing of interest to say about bearings because I know nothing about the subject, but those were not the statements that were labelled as "subjective".
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Now you've done it. People who like vanilla appreciate subtlety, poetry and music. Those who like chocolate need to have their senses assaulted in order for anything to get through.