Sunnyrider56

I'm not disparaging anyone for spending the money, but sincerely asking because I'm trying to wrap my head around nice gear and where to draw the line, where to maximize the investment.


I really like riding, and have for a few years ridden at least 20 km 5 days a week, be it commuting or groceries or long fun rides (I don't own a car). I have some cash saved in my cycling budget, and I'm wondering if dropping it on something like a custom frame in steel or Ti (Moots, Firefly, etc) is really the best place for it. While having a beautiful, durable, fitted frame would be nice, I also realize that a crash (or theft) would reduce that investment to zero in an instant, or changing standards making a "forever" bike harder to outfit after some years (even if it's 10-15).


I suppose this is several questions:


Is it worth spending on a nice frame alone (north of $4000), considering obsolescence and crashes/theft?

Would it be a better "investment" to spend some of that on travel or other gear to make the riding more enjoyable (clothing, groupset or IGH/Pinion, wheels, computer, etc) and a less-expensive frame, assuming geo was right?

If you're intending to ride a bike every day until it breaks, how much could you justify spending on any single bicycle?

billyymc

First, a bike isn't an investment.

Second, you can't really make a "value" argument for this, because you're asking people to put a value on what makes them happy. If owning a bespoke frame bicycle makes you happy, gives you joy whenever you ride it or just look at it, then buy it if you can afford it. There's no real rational reasoning to it.

Sunnyrider56

I wonder if it's just that--increasing happiness. I understand that's important and it's important to me too. But there's a competing interest in not wasting thousands of dollars, if it's possible to avoid. Maybe it's irreconcilable..."can't take it with you on the way out" mentality versus minimalism and making do with the least amount of kit.

I'm feeling choice paralysis, and it's extremely upsetting.

FlMTNdude

Define “obsolete”. There are a lot of 30-40 yo bikes out there in good mechanical and cosmetic condition which are used as daily commuters. Me personally, even if I had the money, wouldn’t spend more than $2500 (realistically for a commuter probably $1500) on the whole bike. If looking at a good road bike that won’t be commuting I might think differently. Where I will put the money out for is gear - pannier, racks, accessories and clothing. And even at that I watch for discounted items. But, it’s your money.

GrainBrain

It would be sweet to have a localy built steel frame, but I would never leave it unattended! Equally awesome would be a nice CF road bike in the $4k range. Or a nice hard tail mtb in that $4k range.

Honestly though there's only one bike that a high price would be justified and that's a full suspension mountain bike. You're looking at $6k for something that's lightish and decently specced.

For right now I ride a mid 90s steel LeMond and I doubt I'd notice a difference between that and a 4k machine, besides the drive train. I spent some money on it and got a good endurance wheelset and decent tires when the old rear wheel failed. Even the drive train isn't bad, I like longer rides out in the open which means not much stopping and shifting.

If I had $4k to spend (at this moment in time) I'd spend $2k on the bike, $500 on gear and the other $1,500 would cover a three week credit card tour

jpescatore

Since you have enough money to even ask the question about spending more money on something not entirely necessary, you are already past the two lowest levels of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.


So am I, and I buy a new bike about every 10 years. I'm really not buying a new bike for the Love and Belonging, as I don't even wear bike "kit" and don't do that many group rides, let alone race.

If I'm honest, the Esteem level does come into play - going from my 1996 steel Trek 520 to my 2017 carbon Trek Domane definitely hit the "self-esteem, strength and freedom" buttons even if I really don't think "respect" or "status" came into play.

For that one, I made a deal with myself: lose 20 pounds and spend on a bike that weighed 10 lbs less than the 520. I wanted to climb hills faster but I was also 40 lbs overweight! So, I felt I justified this "need" with "being the best I could be" with lowering overall bike/rider weight, not just bike weight!

Earlier buy new bike decisions were easy - replacing a 1978 Schwinn Continental with a 1992 Schwinn hybrid bike to pull my daughter in a trailer on rail trails, and buying the Trek 520 because I got into touring and wanted drop bars, rack braze-ons, etc. I could have done all those things on that 1978 Scwhinn, but not as well.

An anecdote:

My wife has a friend who would literally rather eat at a cheap restaurant that served horrible food than an average-priced restaurant that served above average meals. Her "self actualization" needs are actually all about being able to feel like she saved money, or at least spent less.

She and my wife would bike together, my wife riding my son's old monster Specialized Hard Rock mountain bike and her friend riding some old department store bike with crappy components that were constantly going out of adjustment, etc. For her birthday one year I bought my wife a decent (not high end, but not low end) Specialized aluminum frame bike with decent components, etc.

After a few rides together, including my wife's friend trying out my wife's new bike, the friend showed up with a new bike - the same one as my wife! She said "after I bought this bike I literally could not sleep last night, I felt so bad about spending $450 on a bicycle. " She called my wife the next day and said "I enjoyed our ride on our bikes so much, that night I slept like a baby..."

All this was really just a long way of repeating the earlier poster's advice to "figure out which makes you happier, and do that."

I'd add: if option A and option B seem about equal and you can't decide, just flip a coin and do whichever wins! But sometimes a bit more thinking about what your real "needs" are can put distance between the two options.

livedarklions

You are answering your own question. You consider paying more than necessary to be a waste if it isn't an investment. I'm assuming you're not a competitive racer, in which case the notion of obsolescence is completely irrelevant. Bike technology advances incrementally and bikes basically are products that, if well maintained, have a longer useful lifetime than we do. For all practical reasons, any bike might be your "forever" bike, but the concept is a bit silly because the only thing that's predictable is that, being a mortal human being, the engine is going to undergo far more significant changes than your bike or bikes in general.

Long story short -- this is a "what do I want now" question, not a "what bike is going to be worth keeping in 10 years" question. You can't really know what kind of riding you will be doing in 10 years, nor what the bike market will look like in ten years. Figure out what balance of spending will maximize your enjoyment of bicycling now now, and leave the future to the future.

indyfabz

+2.

I have never understood threads like these. What makes me happier may not make another person happier.

For example, I tour. I could have bought a custom Co-Mo or something but I went with a stock LHT and used the savings for other things. The bike is suited for what I do and, therefore, not a compromise of any substance. A Co-Mo, among other things, looks a hell of a lot nicer and is of higher quality, but buying one would not have increased my enjoyment of my activities.

On the flip side, when I needed a new road bike I went high end, custom ti from a local builder and had the bike "decorated" to my liking because that's what I like in a road bike. Custom geometry also suits my odd body geometry. That's much more important for road riding than it is for touring.

JonathanGennick 

I personally would not go the custom frame route because after a certain quality level I prefer to maximize quantity. That's a value judgment that I make for myself, and I fully realize that other cyclists will value aspects of cycling far differently than I do. I also like to buy something bike related every month or two, so I'd probably spread some of that $4000 over time, keeping it socked away and buying new grips and tires and similar whenever my interest was piqued.

bruce19

I'm not entirely sure I understand how you intend to ride. Is it just commuting? What type of bike do you have now? Since you reference the possibility of theft I'm inclined to think putting money into an expensive frame/bike would not be a great idea. If I was in that situation I'd be riding something I could afford to lose. Something new and flashy would not be on my list. One thing I would do, regardless of the bike, is to run tubeless tires. My recent and limited experience with road tubeless has been very positive. I am using Maic USTs and I'm not going back. They are lighter, faster, smoother and generally more comfortable.

If, OTOH, you can assure the safety of your bike and you are just jonesin' to put together a great bike, I always advocate for scratching that itch. In that case I'd give serious consideration to a great AL frame. I'm not a fan of CF but not because I think they are inherently flawed. It's all about the expense. For the same price a CF frame will get you,say, 105 or Ultegra while an AL frame will get you Dura Ace or some other top end components. I think the difference in components may be greater than the difference in frame materials. Just my preference.

Speedway2

Since you're asking.....I like quality "steel" frame, non-suspension, min 32c tires. Spend $$ on a good helmet, padded shorts, glasses, gloves and properly fitting cycling shoes, etc.

I would never spending close to what you're considering for a "commuter bike" if its going to be locked up in an open public area.

DrIsotope

So long as budget allows,

want > need

We don't need any of this. None of it. But satisfying wants is often where happiness comes from.

downhillmaster

OP makes no sense at all.
You can’t clearly state you are basing the purchase on riding the bike every day until it breaks while at the same time being concerned about obsolescence and return on investment.

weiwentg

It can be worth it to splurge $4k on a nice frame. Obsolescence is a potential issue. It's hard to forecast the future. That said, I think that flat mount disc brakes are a settled enough standard. Fork steerer/headset diameters are a bit in flux, but you could go for one of the established tapered standards. You shouldn't go wrong with a T47 threaded bottom bracket. You should be able to get a custom road frame with clearance for 32s or higher. All frames are eventually going to go obsolete, but if you work with a smart custom builder, you'll be on that frame for a long time.

That said, unless you don't fit stuff off the rack very easily, getting a high-zoot custom frame is mainly about the psychological rewards and the pretty paint or anodized finishes. I say this as the owner of one such road bike (paid a bit over $3k in 2007). Actually, that bike has some obsolescent standards: it's got a 1" head tube and rim brakes. And even so, I can still get replacement parts even today. High end rim brakes will be around for some time more. If I need a different stem, I'll just go with a shimmed 1-1/8" stem and live with the visual mismatch. The bike has relatively skinny tubes, but even so, R8000 does look fine on the bike.

That said, you're right that there is a lot of other gear that optimizes your riding experience. Chances are that most people can achieve a satisfactory fit on an off the shelf bike (I just got a stock size small gravel bike). You can and perhaps should blow some money on the accessories. Question is which ones?

In my opinion, groupset should not be one thing that you need to splurge on unless we're talking about electronic versus mechanical. Shimano's 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace groups are functionally very, very similar. Campagnolo's Chorus, Record, and Super Record are functionally identical, but you get more carbon, titanium, and ceramic bearings as you go up - none of which should really impact performance. I've heard Potenza is a very good group also, it just has a different shifting mechanism. I can't speak to SRAM, but I'd bet that Force is also very close to Red. There was always a bit of cachet associated with Campy in general, and with Campy Record versus the other groups, but it was mainly cachet.

For electronic versus mechanical, I'm a bit torn. I actually own one bike with R8000 (i.e. mechanical shift + rim brake) and one with R8070 (electronic + hydraulic disc). I do like Di2 a lot. Di2 shifting won't go out of adjustment, whereas your mechanical shifting will eventually degrade and then you change the cables. I've heard some people say they've tried Di2 and will never go back. I haven't had the Di2 bike very long (2 weeks), but I'm not yet in this camp. Di2 is also quite a bit more expensive. It's definitely something to consider splurging for. I'd say it's less worth it to go for a higher level groupset (e.g. DA or Record), and I'd rather spend the money on the frame or wheels.

For wheels, I think that high end alloy wheels are pretty close in aerodynamics to many carbon ones. With disc brakes, though, carbon wheels will last a long time. In contrast, carbon clincher rim brake wheels had some problems with blowouts and overheating in extended descents. Plus you wear the rim every time you hit the brakes. Tubulars mitigated a lot of those issues, but they required a completely different logistical setup. I am not willing to consider carbon rim brake wheels. However, carbon disc wheels could be a place to splurge. However, you can get good alloy wheels and nice hubs for a lot less.

I'd argue that you should spend money on your clothes and shoes. Get shoes that fit. Get clothes that work well for your climate, e.g. a good ultralight jersey and bibs for the middle of summer, good midweight fabrics for other times, winter gear if you ride then, etc. This is probably an underrated area to spend on.

The other thing is that if you want something to commute on, then I don't think it should be the fancy custom frame. You do want a cheaper commuter bike.

I don't think any bike can really last forever, but I've been on my steel roadie for 12 years. I've got no intention of giving it up for some time. I suspect that if I don't get bored of it, I could easily ride it until the frame fails, or the groupset dies and I can't get a decent rim brake groupset anymore. That should be a very long time from now.

Drew Eckhardt 

I spend most of my money on tires, chains, and shorts as they wear out. Rarely I wear out a bottom bracket (12,500 miles due to excessive preload), shifter (25,000), or cassette (25,000+). I bent a few 400g Mavic Reflex clinchers, although the more durable rims I switched to have held up.

No, but those reasons have nothing to do with it.

Obsolescence isn't a thing for road bikes unless someone is trying to sell you a new one. My 1997 titanium frame fits and rides as well as the day I first built it 23 years ago, and would accept an 11 or 12 cog electronic group if I felt like that. I have matching spares for everything except brake calipers which I'll pickup before they become too collectible.

Crashes aren't an issue. You'll break before a metal frame does, and they're weldable to be as good as new when that happens. I'd be happier if I didn't occasionally feel my sprained AC joint from when I crashed and broke my clavicle.

Theft isn't an issue. You keep it indoors and pay a few dollars for renters/home owners replacement value coverage.

For $4000, you're paying extra for a brand name or cosmetics. Nelson Titanium Products custom titanium frames made in San Francisco start at $1800. San Francisco is not an inexpensive city.

Probably.

You want shorts with comfortable chamois and jerseys which fit both short and long sleeve.

I'm fond of the Elastic Interface Technology Comp HP chamois which feels great past 200 miles. You can get those in Voler shorts for $139, and bibs (other than size samples) somewhat more. With a 26-28" waist I wear small shorts, at 5'10 with a 30" pants inseam XS jersey length is an issue for me, non-custom bibs aren't an option, and I like the Comp HP chamois more than Boure's offerings. Assos and Rapha also use EIT chamois, but you can get better deals from companies catering to the custom market for teams and clubs.

I have race fit thermal jerseys for every day of the week in winter. They are super comfy and worth $89 each apart from the $19 United Health Care team left over.

Most of my summer jerseys are previous year custom program size samples which fit for $25 in regular race fit and $45 for aero.

Sometimes. More cogs give you tighter spacing or more range. Electronic shifting means no cable replacement, going directly to the next gear on the other ring without running Campagnolo mechanical, and perhaps extra shift buttons where you want them. Disc brakes don't eat rims annually in the Pacific Northwest. Carbon brake levers are more comfortable in cool weather that's not cold enough for gloves. Beyond that, a more expensive group doesn't give you additional functionality, just weight and cosmetics. One pound off a 150 pound bike + rider combination is 20 seconds an hour in the mountains (less if you're not built like Alberto Contador). That matters if you're racing or close to earning your 1 hour Mt. Diablo Challenge T-shirt. Otherwise it doesn't.

The performance difference between decent aluminum and carbon is small and could go either way at low yaw angles. As the cross wind component increases, at 20 MPH you're looking at a couple of watts. A bad 25mm+ deep rim might reach 12W at high yaw angles and 30 MPH, although that's out of 600-700 total. Manufacturers publishing numbers use the venerable Open Pro which was slow 20 years ago as a benchmark, use uncommon yaw angles, and measure at 30 MPH requiring over triple the power of a fit recreational cyclist's 20 MPH solo pace.

I built a pair of wheels with retroreflective powder coating for night riding, dynamo front hub to run lights and GPS for long rides outside daylight hours, and PowerTap rear power meter which works with any crank and pedals. That's a big win in enjoyment.

Enough to get what I wanted. I paid $2200 total in 1997 for a straight gauge Litespeed titanium frame built the way I wanted it with Campagnolo components (mostly Chorus, because I wanted ball bearing shifters and hubs with grease ports). 9 cogs cost me a couple of freehubs and a shifter cam adding to $250 when Campagnolo discontinued my favorite 8 speed cassette in 2000. The move to 10 cogs was about $700 in NOS and used parts circa 2014 when I broke a discontinued shifter spring. I have about $1100 in the wheels starting with a new SON28 front hub from Germany and NOS PowerTap SL+ in back. My $300 fit (parts not included) with video was totally worth it for comfort. To my surprise, the right angles also made pedaling feel easier.

I've ridden it everywhere - commuting even in snow storms (27mm cross tires fit), skydiving with rig on a BOB Yak trailer, Grand Junction to Golden, on unsupported solo 100-200 mile recreational rides. I eschewed bike computers from when my purple Avocet broke to 2010, although it's been 34,000 miles since then including the years when I was lazy.

Today I'd spend $3000 on a sporty custom frame with rack eyelets, longer chain stays for pannier heel clearance, and travel couplers. I'd be torn between a 2006 10 speed Campagnolo Record triple group (the titanium hardware and coated front derailleur color coordinate with a titanium frame) with 2010 Centaur Carbon levers and 12 speed electronic SRAM or Campagnolo (cassettes with no 18 cog, and finding a good shifting 42-30 or 40-28 crank to pair with a 10 or 11 starting cog are the hangups). I'd do the same thing with wheels. Probably rim brakes to allow splitting the cables with the frame. That's probably $4500 - $6500 depending on whether I raid my spare parts box, buy a used but not yet vintage gruppo, or go with 12 cog electronic.

If I buy a sports car built for the street and track, it comes with trunk space for groceries. The Porsche 911 even has rear seats for small children. Audi and BMW sell sports sedans that handle great and will do 200 MPH (M5) seating four adults comfortably. It blows my mind that road bikes with accommodation for a laptop containing pannier are uncommon. If I'm going to ride the average 32 mile round trip American commute daily on a bicycle (over 7500 miles and 500 hours annually) , I want an enjoyable riding experience.

I also don't get cheap commuter bicycles. People don't buy Hondas with no lumbar support to spend an hour a day in during the week leaving their nice German sports sedan with heated + cooled leather seats in the garage for Sunday drives. With the average distance people live from work you're spending over twice that time on a bicycle and will get half your weekly commuting total doing a longer weekend ride on your nice bike.

Jon T

I spend my $$ on bike consumables, i.e. tires, tubes, brake pads, etc., etc. My bike is 35 yo (bought it new). I bought it 'cause I liked it. I still like it. It owes me nothing. I've l-o-n-g since gotten my $189 worth out of it. I'm 64 yo. I'm sure it will out live me.
Jon

Bryan C. 

+1 on the want vs. need thing.

Keep your old bike for the utilitarian needs. Buy another bike that is better suited and more enjoyable for the longer fun type rides.

I could never find an appropriate all in one bike so I have a few now that fill specific roles. I find riding each one to be an enjoyable experience and can switch up my rides as needed.

Ogsarg

Only you can decide where your money is best spent but if your use of the bike involves putting it at risk of theft, I would not be spending big bucks on it as it will increase the desire to steal it considerably. If you've got $4-5k into a bike, you're not going to want it out of your sight for a second and if that is going to effect how you want to use the bike, then it's a bad idea.

If 20km/5 days a week is what you plan to do, I don't think I'd spend any more than a grand on the complete bike but that is just me. If you have the means, get what makes you happy.

Slightspeed

There are no rules for me. I've bought bikes for $20, $3600 and in between, and I enjoy riding them all. The one thing I don't scrimp on is tires. They are all that connect you to Mother Earth. Also, I hate changing "on the road" flats. I have a 3 flat rule for replacing tires. I ride either Gatorskins or Paselas, not the fastest, but they are reliable and work for me. I guess my big weakness $wise are jersies. In 20+ years of cycling I must have over 50 (afraid to actually count them). When I lost 40lbs of rider weight, I did pass the bigger ones along, and I try to always buy them on sale or as closeouts.

livedarklions

Let's make this simple--a $4000 bike for 12 mile rides is extravagant, and you will never be able to "justify" it rationally. If you will enjoy owning such a bike so much that it doesn't matter that it's irrational, then it's worth it to you. Frankly, though, it just sounds to me like you'll just end up worrying about it so much that you won't want to risk riding it much.

There's some really great bikes available at a small fraction of that price and you might enjoy them a lot more because you won't feel any pressure to make them last "forever".

TimothyH

Spend whatever it takes.

Price is really no object when walking the bike up to a crowded coffee shop where the benefits of deep carbon rims and Rapha jerseys really shine through.

Trade all your bikes to help a sick puppy


-Tim-

Gromax

Spend your money on a bike vacation! Pack up the bike, fly with it to the other side of the planet, and have fun biking times over there.

PJay120

I think the worthwhile factors to consider might be: speed / effort , comfort, and reliability.
For OP, competitive performance does not seem to be yet another factor.

A lighter bike is generally faster - that takes money. But for 20K, the speed difference by lowering weight maybe 4 lbs likely would not justify the difference between 1,000 and 4,000.

To get a good fit, you often but not always need to spend more money.

Reliability. I put a lot here. Better, more ergonomic shifters = reliability. Simpler = more reliability - ie an old bike with downtube shifters will be more reliable in one sense, but take more intentional effort to shift, so are less reliable in a sense. Dinging a steel frame will not impact reliability of frame as much as carbon or aluminum. I think the hydraulics of disc brakes adds to problems as time goes by, so lower reliability. Very light spokes = spoke trouble = lower reliability.

Theft of a $400 bike versus a $4,000 bike: you can reliably go out and replace a $400 bike much easier.

Tulok

In my opinion, tires and comfort are the primary concern in all cycling. Long distance or short.

My favorite bike for 12 mile rides is an Electra Cruiser 1. It’s under $300.

For 20-25 miles I like an upright bike with north road bars and a nice seat.

For 40+ mile rides it’s my road bike.

Machka 

I think of it in a couple ways ...

1) a bicycle for every purpose

2) $/km ridden.
So years ago, I spent about $3000 on a bicycle which I've since ridden 50,000+ km ... what's that 6 cents/km?
If you assume that a 2-hour ride for me is 35 km, that's $2.10.
I will happily pay $32 to go to the symphony or a play for 2 hours ... so spending $2.10 to cycle for 2 hours is a bargain!