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First thoughts on Titanium

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First thoughts on Titanium

Old 10-06-19, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
You keep your bike outside?
it's inside my landlords garage. The property is gated but since I live in NYC I have it locked up to a post in the garage. I am aware the wire can be very easily cut with the proper tool but it would stop someone from walking in and running out with it. I should probably get a thick chain and wrap that around the post and use the u lock around the frame
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Old 10-07-19, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19
Some bikes just "speak to me." This is one of them. I never tire of seeing it.
Yea, but, needs Campy.
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Old 10-08-19, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
There was a car analogy that I read somewhere that described the difference very well. Anyway, from my perspective owning both...the Ti (my Ti) has the ability to soak up road imperfections while still maintaining rigidity required to be super responsive. It is more comfortable than my carbon and is just as snappy.
Is this the one?

I struggle to describe the ride. A steel bike might be like a Cadillac, a carbon bike may be like a 'Vette. This bike is like a BMW 7 series or maybe a Tesla. Not as sporty as the 'Vette and not as cushy as the Cadillac, but you feel the plush, hushed, sportiness. No creaks, squeaks and clicks. It soaks up road irregularities without making you feel disconnected from the road. A carbon race bike might be said to accelerate like a rocket. This one accelerates like a tuned diesel. Just strong steady spool up. You can't flick it about like a lightweight race bike, but it handles superbly.
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Old 10-08-19, 09:39 AM
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Since buying my Lynskey Backroad, I have gone to an all titanium fleet. I'll leave the steel where it belongs in ships, the aluminum where it belongs in beer cans and the carbon where it belongs in my fishing rods. My heart goes out to all who have to suffer lesser frame materials.
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Old 10-08-19, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Is this the one?

I struggle to describe the ride. A steel bike might be like a Cadillac, a carbon bike may be like a 'Vette. This bike is like a BMW 7 series or maybe a Tesla. Not as sporty as the 'Vette and not as cushy as the Cadillac, but you feel the plush, hushed, sportiness. No creaks, squeaks and clicks. It soaks up road irregularities without making you feel disconnected from the road. A carbon race bike might be said to accelerate like a rocket. This one accelerates like a tuned diesel. Just strong steady spool up. You can't flick it about like a lightweight race bike, but it handles superbly.
I feel the same way about my Rolex watch. Not the most accurate, not the most durable, not the lightest, doesn't have any features, needs to be worn regularly, requires full servicing every 10 years at the cost of a normal wristwatch, etc. But everyone agrees that Rolex watches are the best!
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Old 10-08-19, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
I couldn't stand the white tape so changed it to some black gel cork tape which is soft and padded well and I think the bike looks a lot better with less maintenance.

Also switched the saddle to a Selle Italia Gel C2
So, your way smooth ti bike need extra padded tape and saddle?
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Old 10-08-19, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mercator
So, your way smooth ti bike need extra padded tape and saddle?
need no, the stock Prologo saddle was actually really good but I have always ridden on Selle Italia C2 Gel saddles. The white tape was plenty cushy just I hated cleaning it and I didn't think it looked that great against a raw Ti frame. The "gel" part of the cork tape is kind of a joke since there really isn't much of it in there, however the cork tape is much softer.

Overall the tape was more cosmetic and the saddle was probably un needed but a I got the C2 new for $60 which is a steal

BTW this the same exact tape and saddle I had on my previous 3 carbon bikes

Last edited by Jrasero; 10-08-19 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 10-08-19, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Is this the one?

I struggle to describe the ride. A steel bike might be like a Cadillac, a carbon bike may be like a 'Vette. This bike is like a BMW 7 series or maybe a Tesla. Not as sporty as the 'Vette and not as cushy as the Cadillac, but you feel the plush, hushed, sportiness. No creaks, squeaks and clicks. It soaks up road irregularities without making you feel disconnected from the road. A carbon race bike might be said to accelerate like a rocket. This one accelerates like a tuned diesel. Just strong steady spool up. You can't flick it about like a lightweight race bike, but it handles superbly.
As someone who used to lust after carbon bikes and bought into the narrative of ride what the pros ride, all of my past bikes have been carbon and while there are some true benefits to have a super light bike in a material that all major bike brands build for and is supported at LBS is cool, but if you are willing to sacrifice a lb or so and go down the road less traveled a Ti or high end steel bike is where it is at IMO if you don't race. If you race where every gram counts and you want those beautiful aero frame, 100% go carbon
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Old 10-08-19, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by velopig
I feel the same way about my Rolex watch. Not the most accurate, not the most durable, not the lightest, doesn't have any features, needs to be worn regularly, requires full servicing every 10 years at the cost of a normal wristwatch, etc. But everyone agrees that Rolex watches are the best!
lol maybe it's because I am a retail buyer but I totally disagree no offense. Watches in general until you get to Patek Philippe, but even then all high end watches loose tons of value, aren't that accurate, and cost of maintenance is way too expensive. Frankly when you say Rolex is "the best", they really are only really good at one thing, perception. He it's your money your choice but Ti bikes are the furthest thing from a Rolex or luxury watches since I guarantee you will loose less money selling a 3 year old Ti bike than a 3 year old Rolex. That isn't to say anyone should invest their money in Ti bikes.
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Old 10-08-19, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
lol maybe it's because I am a retail buyer but I totally disagree no offense. Watches in general until you get to Patek Philippe, but even then all high end watches loose tons of value, aren't that accurate, and cost of maintenance is way too expensive. Frankly when you say Rolex is "the best", they really are only really good at one thing, perception. He it's your money your choice but Ti bikes are the furthest thing from a Rolex or luxury watches since I guarantee you will loose less money selling a 3 year old Ti bike than a 3 year old Rolex. That isn't to say anyone should invest their money in Ti bikes.
Depending on the model, of course, but Rolexes hold their value pretty well. What Rolex has done very well is promulgate the myth that they’re “the best”. They’re very good, certainly, but there are any number of good solid automatic watches as good - they just don’t have that Rolex cachet for which people are prepared to pay over the odds. Ti frames, on the other hand, depreciate steeply, just like any other bike part - case in point, I bought my Ti frameset (Litespeed Vortex) 3 years old but mint, for 1/3 of its new price
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Old 10-08-19, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud
Depending on the model, of course, but Rolexes hold their value pretty well. What Rolex has done very well is promulgate the myth that they’re “the best”. They’re very good, certainly, but there are any number of good solid automatic watches as good - they just don’t have that Rolex cachet for which people are prepared to pay over the odds. Ti frames, on the other hand, depreciate steeply, just like any other bike part - case in point, I bought my Ti frameset (Litespeed Vortex) 3 years old but mint, for 1/3 of its new price
Like you said myth, I am not saying Rolex watches are bad but like any luxury item the value is really in the eye of the beholder. My brother gave me a submarine and maintenance was $800, granted this was a near $10K watch that I got on a deep sale and with a friends employee discount, but none the less it's simply not worth the hassle. Why should a watches maintenance cost 8% of the MSRP. I sold that watch actually for a slight profit due to the steep discount but honestly one of the more pointless gifts of my life since at least where I live and work (NY/Park Avenue) a Rolex is somewhat common

Also the whole folklore of automatics and Rolex's perpetual movement is highly overrated. Frankly as a millennial I'd rather by a new smart phone for the next 4 years, a new Titanium bike, and still have money left to buy a grey market Omega
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Old 10-08-19, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
Also the whole folklore of automatics and Rolex's perpetual movement is highly overrated. Frankly as a millennial I'd rather by a new smart phone for the next 4 years, a new Titanium bike, and still have money left to buy a grey market Omega
All purely mechanical watches (including Rolex) are functionally obsolete; A $10 Casio quartz watch is more accurate than most of them, and only requires a $2 battery replacement once a decade.
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Old 10-08-19, 09:30 PM
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In what way is titanium obsolete as a frame material?
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Old 10-09-19, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff
In what way is titanium obsolete as a frame material?
Funny how the haters always like to come and ogle the Ti bikes before making ignorant comments.
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Old 10-09-19, 05:35 AM
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Confused

After reading all these comments I am more confused,. I have been thinking about trying a titanium bike, but want to know more if it is really a better ride than my Casati Ellisse road bike with EL OS tubing. I having the carbon Campy Centaur group on it and a Sella Anatomica saddle. I think I may change the saddle as you sit on the back rails even though the theory is it is like a suspension from the leather which you can tighten as it breaks in. Maybe a used titanium, what are you thoughts on used or brand?? , thanks..
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Old 10-09-19, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sumgy
Funny how the haters always like to come and ogle the Ti bikes before making ignorant comments.
Compare the hater's join date to his first post date. Things that make you go "Hmmmmm?"
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Old 10-09-19, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Is this the one?

I struggle to describe the ride. A steel bike might be like a Cadillac, a carbon bike may be like a 'Vette. This bike is like a BMW 7 series or maybe a Tesla. Not as sporty as the 'Vette and not as cushy as the Cadillac, but you feel the plush, hushed, sportiness. No creaks, squeaks and clicks. It soaks up road irregularities without making you feel disconnected from the road. A carbon race bike might be said to accelerate like a rocket. This one accelerates like a tuned diesel. Just strong steady spool up. You can't flick it about like a lightweight race bike, but it handles superbly.
I think so, however my T2 is plenty snappy when I get on it.
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Old 10-09-19, 10:49 AM
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My over the top comment was a poke at those that still assign these mythical qualities to Titanium as a frame material. For the record, I find some beautiful and most likely one day I will purchase one. Carbon, Steel and Aluminium all produce great framesets and can be tuned to deliver the type of ride one looks for. Typical dig at carbon is that it fails spontaneously and is not reliable however 90%+ of people who ride titanium use carbon forks and other critical components. If someone built a sub 750 gram titanium bike I am sure its reliability and rideability would encounter a problem as well. This ongoing justification for paying a premium for titanium because it's superior to all other materials is a bit much for me.

I own a Rolex and like the watch just because. I would like a Titanium bike for the same reason (plus they don't show scratches as readily).
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Old 10-09-19, 12:59 PM
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I'd put titanium on par with a carbon fiber assuming they are both well made. But it's a little disingenuous for Ti bike manufacturers to say it's a lifetime purchase when sadly ti can crack just like anything else. Benefit of ti over other materials is really subjective. Depends on what you like & why.

That being said I LOVE my ti bike. I ride mtb's exclusively but my ti bike is unrivaled in terms of comfort. The s bend stays do an amazingly good job of absorbing chatter & bumps. Already had a crack repaired once, and I'll gladly have it repaired a 2nd time if that happens again.

BTW that Dean is awesome!
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Old 10-09-19, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by velopig
My over the top comment was a poke at those that still assign these mythical qualities to Titanium as a frame material. For the record, I find some beautiful and most likely one day I will purchase one. Carbon, Steel and Aluminium all produce great framesets and can be tuned to deliver the type of ride one looks for. Typical dig at carbon is that it fails spontaneously and is not reliable however 90%+ of people who ride titanium use carbon forks and other critical components. If someone built a sub 750 gram titanium bike I am sure its reliability and rideability would encounter a problem as well. This ongoing justification for paying a premium for titanium because it's superior to all other materials is a bit much for me.

I own a Rolex and like the watch just because. I would like a Titanium bike for the same reason (plus they don't show scratches as readily).
Thanks for the clarification. Different strokes for different folks, to each his own, and all that good stuff. I removed your earlier post which fell squarely into the trolling category.
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Old 10-09-19, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by velopig;
This ongoing justification for paying a premium for titanium because it's superior to all other materials is a bit much for me.
So what is the justification for paying a premium for a carbon fibre frame?
Plenty of big brand CF frames in the same price range as boutique Ti.
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Old 10-09-19, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sumgy
So what is the justification for paying a premium for a carbon fibre frame?

Plenty of big brand CF frames in the same price range as boutique Ti.


Not to defend the pricing of the manufacturers however to play devil's advocate.


Upfront costs for the big brand carbon guys are substantial with molding, carbon layup design and substantial quality control costs. Plus you have to account for massive marketing dollars, distribution channels and company overheads.


Titanium on the other hand costs are substantially lower in a limited production environment. Materials are relatively easy to source, tubes come pre-formed, plate for dropouts, etc. Equipment-wise a Milling machine, Lathe, TIG welder and some inert gas a few other hand tools and you are off to the races.


The big issue with titanium is it does not scale very well and your costs do not drop comparatively as production increases. Thus the titanium marketing machine creates additional drivers to incent purchase, (see DeBeers and Diamonds for a comparator).


On a one-off custom build scenario, Titanium would be the material of choice for me.


K
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Old 10-09-19, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
First thoughts on Titanium
Money
Probably not worth the premium for an e-bike
Money
No suspension
Money
No tandem
Money
More Money
Not the prettiest
Money
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Old 10-09-19, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by velopig
Not to defend the pricing of the manufacturers however to play devil's advocate.


Upfront costs for the big brand carbon guys are substantial with molding, carbon layup design and substantial quality control costs. Plus you have to account for massive marketing dollars, distribution channels and company overheads.


Titanium on the other hand costs are substantially lower in a limited production environment. Materials are relatively easy to source, tubes come pre-formed, plate for dropouts, etc. Equipment-wise a Milling machine, Lathe, TIG welder and some inert gas a few other hand tools and you are off to the races.


The big issue with titanium is it does not scale very well and your costs do not drop comparatively as production increases. Thus the titanium marketing machine creates additional drivers to incent purchase, (see DeBeers and Diamonds for a comparator).


On a one-off custom build scenario, Titanium would be the material of choice for me.


K
Correct, because the Ti frames are all hand built even at a mass production point.
But there is no way you can say that a mass built Venge is better value than say a hand built Moots.
And in 30 years I know which will still be drooled over.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sumgy
Correct, because the Ti frames are all hand built even at a mass production point.
But there is no way you can say that a mass built Venge is better value than say a hand built Moots.
And in 30 years I know which will still be drooled over.
That’s if you work on the premise that hand built is automatically better. Which from a performance perspective I don’t see.

Regarding the drool factor like diamonds and Rolex’s I concur.
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