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Shifter derailleur incompatibility on 9 speed Shimano

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Shifter derailleur incompatibility on 9 speed Shimano

Old 10-24-19, 06:35 AM
  #26  
Kapusta
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
Am I the only one to think that straightening a derailleur hanger is a Bad Idea(tm)? Those things are sacrificial and they're made of aluminum. Once bent, you can consider them ruined because bending them back won't be a permanent fix.
I am assuming you are talking about replaceable aluminum hangars....

You can usually straighten one if it is just a little off. I’ve done it countless times.

“Permanent fix”? Well even a new hangar is not “permanent”. No sense replacing the hangar before you need to.

Also, I’ve had a number of instances where a NEW hangar needs a tweak. So even a new one does not necessarily eliminate the need to bend one.

Yes, Al is a little weaker after being bent, but it really depends on how much it was bent. If I found a hangar kept going out of alignment, I’d probably just replace it.
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Old 10-24-19, 06:40 AM
  #27  
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Duplicate Post

Last edited by Kapusta; 10-24-19 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 10-24-19, 06:53 AM
  #28  
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I agree with both posters above. I've sucesfully straightened a slightly bent hanger several times, but I have also broken a badly bent one while trying to straighten it.
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Old 10-24-19, 09:19 AM
  #29  
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OP replies: Shimano road shifters do not work with new MTB derailleurs

I took the advice to call Shimano. I got through to a CS guy in under 3 minutes, so am pleased with that. He says road shifters won't work with the MTB derailleur because [as I can verify firsthand] they have different cable pull ratio. I asked if that is true for 9-speeds, and he said it is. He said I need a Sora road derailleur to work with my road shifters, but that they are only specs for up to 32 tooth max. The Shimano PDF for current gear says the Sora GS will handle 34 tooth cog, but I've read posts from people who say it works on 36 tooth. So that's what I'm going to try. I also ordered new Ultegra cable housing. I figure it can't hurt, as originals have 20,000 miles or so of wear.
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Old 10-24-19, 10:40 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
He says road shifters won't work with the MTB derailleur because [as I can verify firsthand] they have different cable pull ratio. I asked if that is true for 9-speeds, and he said it is. .
I believe he is mistaken, and I have two working bikes using road shifters and MTB RDs to prove it.

In my experience, this is the sort of answer you get from a rep when they don't know why you are having problems.

If what he says is true, then new 9 speed mtb RDs would also not work with old 9 speed MTB shifters.

Last edited by Kapusta; 10-24-19 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 10-24-19, 12:07 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I believe he is mistaken, and I have two working bikes using road shifters and MTB RDs to prove it.

In my experience, this is the sort of answer you get from a rep when they don't know why you are having problems.

If what he says is true, then new 9 speed mtb RDs would also not work with old 9 speed MTB shifters.
The guy at Shimano is wrong.

OP
Read this link thoroughly

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1278/bi...compatibility/


If you have Shimano 9 speed road shifters (that are NOT Tiagra 4700) and a Shimano 9 speed mountain bike rear derailleur your problem is not incompatibility.

From the link:

"1. Shimano

6, 7, 8 and 9 speeds

Rear shift ratio is 1.7, that is for 1 mm of cable pull/release, RD is moved left/right by 1.7 mm. Shimano calls this 2:1 ratio for marketing reasons.

All these RDs are compatible and any 6 to 9 speed RD will work perfectly with either 6, 7, 8 or 9 speed shifter. Regardless whether it’s a MTB, or road shifter, or RD. They are also compatible with Shimano 10 speed road shifters, except the Tiagra 4700 series."

Last edited by nomadmax; 10-24-19 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-24-19, 11:10 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
There is no groove for cable in the pinch bolt assembly, but it seems designed to run cable over inboard side where it clamps and the loose end is directed away from spokes by a tab on lower end of assembly.
Sounds like the cable is incorrectly attached, it is supposed to be attached on the outboard side of the pinch bolt.

Attach it on the correct side and report back.






Last edited by cobba; 10-24-19 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 10-31-19, 07:23 PM
  #33  
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Happy ending

I've returned the Alivio, but I don't think it looked quite like yours. Is yours a 2019 Alivio SGS? I'll grant your theory could be true: I considered it at length before deciding to install inboard. On mine, going on the outboard side made no sense; it just wasn't made for that. So I'll say what I observed.

Although it was no doubt true in the past, it is no longer true that Shimano 9-speed road shifters work with 9-speed MTB derailleur. As my original post described, I tried to use my road shifters with an Alivio MTB derailleur, and found the shifters don't pull enough cable to move the derailleur from gear to gear.

Shimano CS rep. told me road and mountain 9- speed have different cable pull ratio, and he is correct. I ordered a Sora road derailleur and installed it, and it works properly. So folks should stop saying all 9- speed gear is compatible; I can attest that it isn’t, at least for the models in my O.P.

When I had the Alivio MTB derailleur on the bike, I had to shorten the shifter cable to try it, so going back to a road shifter required a new shifter cable. But I was fortunate to be able to return the Alivio for a refund, so I didn't get burned too badly overall. And most importantly the Sora works just fine with my 11/36 cassette, even though it's only spec'd for 34t max.

So the project was a belated success and I've got an 11/36 instead of 11/26 cassette. By the way, the spacing of cogs is identical on the MTB cassette that is now installed as it is on the road cassette I removed. I held them together and eyeballed it; they're perfectly aligned.
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Old 10-31-19, 09:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
I'll grant your theory could be true: I considered it at length before deciding to install inboard. On mine, going on the outboard side made no sense; it just wasn't made for that. So I'll say what I observed.
What didn't make sense to you, affected how the 2 parts worked together.
The outboard side is where the cable is supposed to go, it mightn't seem to be much but moving the cable 5mm from where it's supposed to be, will affect the shifting.
I've seen posts where people had done the same thing that you did with a mountain derailleur and mountain shifter, they couldn't get the derailleur to shift properly till they attached the cable to the outboard side where it's supposed to go.

Although it was no doubt true in the past, it is no longer true that Shimano 9-speed road shifters work with 9-speed MTB derailleur. As my original post described, I tried to use my road shifters with an Alivio MTB derailleur, and found the shifters don't pull enough cable to move the derailleur from gear to gear.

Shimano CS rep. told me road and mountain 9- speed have different cable pull ratio, and he is correct. I ordered a Sora road derailleur and installed it, and it works properly. So folks should stop saying all 9- speed gear is compatible; I can attest that it isn’t, at least for the models in my O.P
If you attached the cable in the correct position, I think you would of got it shifting properly.
Attaching the cable in the incorrect position will slightly change how the shifter moves the derailleur, you basically changed the pull ratio of the derailleur by attaching the cable incorrectly.
Shimano hasn't changed the pull ratio of their 9 speed components, what you had should of worked if it was attached properly, I think your Shimano CS got it wrong.
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Old 11-01-19, 10:13 AM
  #35  
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(X-posting this as you started this thread in two different boards....)

The info from the CS rep still does not smell right to me, and I still suspect there was some other issue with the first RD (cable attachment or bent b-link). I am open to being proven wrong, but so far I am highly skeptical.

Think about it: If newer 9 speed MTB and Road shifters/RDs have different cable pulls, that means either.....

A) Shimano changed the pull ratio for 9 sp MTB. In this case, then current 9 sp MTB shifters/RD would be incompatible with older ones.
B) Shimano changed the pull ratio for 9 sp Road. In this case, then current 9 sp Road shifters/RD would be incompatible with older ones.

If either of these things were the case, there would have been a huge amount of confusion and hoopla, online boards would be full of questions about it, with bike shops ordering the wrong parts to replace 9 speed shifters or RD's. I have searched and not found any documentation or industry news about Shimano changing the pull ratios for either MTB or Road 9 sp. The only case I am aware of with Shimano screwing with compatibility within a given speed/use group is 10 speed Tiagra (a 10 speed road group not compatible with other 10 sp road groups) and that is well documented and easily verified online.

So what else could explain your situation?

A) Cable attachment: if you do an image search of "shimano alivio rd-m4000" (which is what you say you had) every picture that shows the cable attachment shows it on the OUTSIDE (away from the cassette) of the pinch bolt. You had yours on the inside, correct? This would totally explain your issue.

B) Bent b-link: While it is unlikely that a new one wold be bent, you never answered my question (either here or in the other place you posted this) about whether you used your hangar alignment tool to check if the B-link was bent.

I am willing to be educated with new information on this, but so far I am not seeing it. I am thus far more inclined to believe you either attached the cable wrong, or had a bent b-link than to believe that after 25 years, Shimano quietly changed the pull ratio of 9 speed for no apparent reason without telling anyone.
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Old 08-11-21, 05:30 PM
  #36  
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Shimano 'Shadow'

My 2nd post, I need 10-posts, so here goes.

Search Shimano's bicycle website for

SHIMANO SHADOW RD

&

Technologies Explained - Shadow RD+

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Old 08-12-21, 06:55 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by JAG1 View Post
My 2nd post, I need 10-posts, so here goes.

Search Shimano's bicycle website for

SHIMANO SHADOW RD

&

Technologies Explained - Shadow RD+

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Old 08-12-21, 07:23 AM
  #38  
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What is a zombie thread?

Some thread in which every idea, silly or sensible was completely beaten to death, so that the thread, naturally and blessedly, expired ......

Until ......

Some guy new to the site decided to Resurrect this expired thread, and re-inflict it upon the community.

We have already suffered through this debate once. Why not let it lie?

If you want to start a thread about a new topic, say Shimano Shadow derailleur technology ... please do that. Start a new thread.
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Old 08-12-21, 08:17 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
What is a zombie thread?

Some thread in which every idea, silly or sensible was completely beaten to death, so that the thread, naturally and blessedly, expired ......

Until ......

Some guy new to the site decided to Resurrect this expired thread, and re-inflict it upon the community.

We have already suffered through this debate once. Why not let it lie?

If you want to start a thread about a new topic, say Shimano Shadow derailleur technology ... please do that. Start a new thread.
Agree 100%

A lot of time and effort went into correcting the misinformation put forth, and resurrecting this only serves to spread it again.
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Old 08-12-21, 11:25 AM
  #40  
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I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of mix-n-match setups as it is pretty pointless to argue. And there will always be someone who took Nuovo Record RD, paired it to SRAM shifters, and a Suntour cassette and it shifts like glass.

But I do want to leave a comment on the Shimano rep's statement that road shifters are not compatible and won't work with mountain bike rear derailleurs. Technically this is true from Shimano's documentation. I have Shimano Product Compatibility Product manuals back to 2004. I cannot recall ever seeing any Shimano chart that mixes specifically identified road and mountain components; an exception might "technically" be GRX, but I haven't really looked at those docs.

Based on this, the Shimano rep cannot tell a customer to mix components that are not supported by Shimano Tech Docs. I imagine part of it is to sell current products, but I think the bigger part is product liability. Shimano has always been conservative in a lot of their specs/documentation and it is for good reason.

John
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Old 08-12-21, 08:27 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of mix-n-match setups as it is pretty pointless to argue. And there will always be someone who took Nuovo Record RD, paired it to SRAM shifters, and a Suntour cassette and it shifts like glass.

But I do want to leave a comment on the Shimano rep's statement that road shifters are not compatible and won't work with mountain bike rear derailleurs. Technically this is true from Shimano's documentation. I have Shimano Product Compatibility Product manuals back to 2004. I cannot recall ever seeing any Shimano chart that mixes specifically identified road and mountain components; an exception might "technically" be GRX, but I haven't really looked at those docs.

Based on this, the Shimano rep cannot tell a customer to mix components that are not supported by Shimano Tech Docs. I imagine part of it is to sell current products, but I think the bigger part is product liability. Shimano has always been conservative in a lot of their specs/documentation and it is for good reason.

John
Oh God, make it stop. Please.
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Old 08-12-21, 08:55 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Oh God, make it stop. Please.
I only posted it because you said the rep is wrong. I know it works and you know it works. Just about every road setup I have has a mtb RD.

The point is the rep “has” to say it doesn’t work. If you worked for Shimano and got a call from a customer, you would have to say it doesn’t work or you would be gone.

You can always talk to a shop owner mechanic unofficially on the side, but not to some customer on the phone.

Tech Docs supersede reality. It is the way companies are run.

John
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Old 08-13-21, 12:28 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I only posted it because you said the rep is wrong. I know it works and you know it works. Just about every road setup I have has a mtb RD.

The point is the rep “has” to say it doesn’t work. If you worked for Shimano and got a call from a customer, you would have to say it doesn’t work or you would be gone.

You can always talk to a shop owner mechanic unofficially on the side, but not to some customer on the phone.

Tech Docs supersede reality. It is the way companies are run.

John
OK fair enough.

Sorry for overreacting. This thread resurrection must be re-traumatizing me.
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Old 08-13-21, 07:35 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
OK fair enough.

Sorry for overreacting. This thread resurrection must be re-traumatizing me.
No problem with your reaction. I re-read my original post and could have done a much better job explaining my reasoning.

At the time my only thought was someone will find this thread one day and think, “Well Shimano said it wouldn’t work.”

John
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Old 08-13-21, 09:32 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
No problem with your reaction. I re-read my original post and could have done a much better job explaining my reasoning.

At the time my only thought was someone will find this thread one day and think, “Well Shimano said it wouldn’t work.”

John
Yeah, the sad fact is that CS reps don't always give good info. I've gotten dead wrong information over the phone from a rep at Hope and even from a kid from Turner Bikes (from some kid working there, not from Dave).

I think you may be on to something as to why Shimano may want to stick to the simple "Road and MTB are incompatible" mantra. The compatibility is a little complicated and they may be afraid that someone will read that Road and MTB are compatible and do something stupid. Even a lot of bike shops don't understand what is compatible with what.

They may also be worried about someone confusing shifter/RD compatibility with shifter/FD compatibility. Or how crank compatibility works. Or the issues when you run a Road RD without enough max cog or chain wrap capacity on a MTB cassette.
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Old 08-13-21, 12:15 PM
  #46  
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Yes, to all that.

I have mixed and matched--my Cannondale currently has an Arcero RD and a Claris and a Micronew brifter (one of each.) The higher-level stuff does have different cable pulls apparently, but not only does not every Shimano CSR know what is what .... they cannot take a chance recommending anything not "on the books," so to speak. Too much risk of legal entanglement. Plus---it is good for business if you have to buy a complete new group set just to add two more teeth on the largest cog.
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Old 08-14-21, 10:03 PM
  #47  
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We have six touting bikes in our family that are set up with mountain bike gearing and use Tiagra 4503 9 spd road shifters.

Four of the bikes are set up the same and two bikes are set up the same the only differences are the cranksets. and rear derailleurs. The bikes are equiped with: XT, or LX 9 spd. RDs, XT or LX 11-34 9 spd. cassettes, Shimano 4503 FDs, Shimano 443 or Sugino DX500 44/32/22 9 spd. crankets, all are equipped with Shimano 4503 9 spd. shifters. They all shift smoothly and quietly. One of my wife's touring bikes has 26,000 on the same shifters and derailleurs.





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