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Grandpa Level Questions Re Bike For Grandson ?

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Grandpa Level Questions Re Bike For Grandson ?

Old 01-13-20, 07:39 AM
  #1  
Robert11
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Grandpa Level Questions Re Bike For Grandson ?

Hello,

Grandpa level questions,
Great Forum and folks.

Come April, will be purchasing a new bike for my 9 yr old Grandson.
Obviously, once in the bike store it will pretty much be what he likes, and feels comfortable on.

But, thought it would be worth while, as well as interesting, to ask you experts a bunch of questions so I could perhaps gain
a bit of knowledge prior to the store visit. Probably worse than buying a car.

Anyway, he will have just turned 9.
Thin and slender, and probably just about “average height”.
Height is about 48”
His crotch to floor is about 24 “

So, what would be most suitable for him ?

a. What frame size would be suitable ? Material ?

b. What handle bar style ? The “flat/straight ones that don’t require bending over, or the ones that curve under (I’m not sure what they are called ? Racing style ?). Why ?

c. At this stage now, do all the suitable bikes come with (only) handle bar actuated brakes for the front and rear ?
(no more coaster brake via the foot ?)

d. Derailler: how many “speeds” ? Anything special to look for, or to avoid ?

e. Tires: Probably 95% of the time he’ll be on a paved road or sidewalk. Type ? Size ?

*e.g., what the price range for something “decent/good” ?

Any brands to strongly consider, or to stay away from ?
Anything else I should probably be asking, but haven’t ? (things to consider, what’s important, and what isn’t, etc.)

Realize this is a lot of questions, but any opinions would be most appreciated; even partially.

Much thanks, most appreciative,
Bob
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Old 01-13-20, 09:05 AM
  #2  
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I suspect you'll be looking at a 24" bike, used to be a lot of 12" framed 26" wheel bikes that could stretch further but these don't exist so much any more. My 2 older kids, 7 and 9, are both 50" tall and we picked them up Cannondale trail 24s which were the best option I could find.
Things that narrowed it down for me
No 7 speed, 2 reasons, 1. it means a freewheel and I've seen plenty of kids bend freewheel hubs with their light weight bouncing of curbs, jumps, and just in general riding rough; the design was justifiably outdated 30+ years ago and they should just stop making it. 2. every 7 speed bike came with the Shimano branded grip shift, haven't met a kid yet that can easily turn these things and have watched adults struggle, just a bad spec. For whatever reason the 8sp version is a lot easier to use.

Cank length- we first got my daughter a 20 year old trek 220 to try MTBing with, when she stood to pedal her hips would really rock back and forth. Cranks are 155mm which is too long. Kona still specs 165mm which is stupid long on a kids bike. 140mm or smaller is more ideal, C-dale came with 130mm which is perfect to me. Shorter cranks make it harder for kids to have a "proper" leg extension but even far from ideal their knees don't come as high at the top of the pedal stroke so much better on their joints.

Weight- giant doesn't post their weight for a reason, they're damn heavy. Most kids bikes are around 30lb, c-dale was only 26.5 and my scale backs this us, when the kid is 50lb and doesn't need to lose weight those 2-4 lbs matter a lot more.

Brakes-doesn't matter. I liked that theirs came with disc since I will be upgrading the fork to a spinner grind air shock which should also help to take a 1/2lb off while actually doing something.

Front suspension- generally useless at the 400.00 range, to some extent better even to avoid. The kids like having it though it just adds weight. Bikes at the 800.00 range have useful ones but for just neighborhood rides any shock is fine and the kids do like it.
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Old 01-13-20, 09:20 AM
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Check out this sub-forum https://www.bikeforums.net/recreational-family/

There have been many questions similar to the one you are asking. Sometimes components do matter. Kids have trouble with brake handles not sized properly and especially twist grip shifters that may be hard for a child to turn. Since you will want the lightest bike for the money, skip those with the near useless shocks. They add unnecessary weight to the bike while rarely offering any additional comfort.
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Old 01-13-20, 10:26 AM
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Since he is 9 and will eventually outgrow the bike, and since you mentioned cable and pedal brakes, I would suggest a "transition bike"... one that has a hand/cable front brake and either just a coaster (foot) brake or coaster plus hand rear brake.

Eschew Roadmaster, Hyper, and most x-mart bikes like the plague... they aren't well made or put together with care.

Personally, Bob, I would let him "abuse" a used bike till he learns to care for his machine. That I would deem practical. Even better, if there is a bicycle co-op nearby, the two of you could build him the bike of his dreams and he would learn maintenance (with Granddad!) at a wonderful, young age....

For me, it has been 6 years of a used Trek that I still ride and have no wish to replace.
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Old 01-13-20, 10:52 AM
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With my kids we bought quality used until they got to be teenagers. I also looked for trigger shifters rather than twist shifters as they had trouble with them.
of course you'd have to be comfortable with assessing a used bike.

Stuff like this
https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...013824164.html

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...040905320.html
https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...048899455.html
https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...040041430.html

And who can resist a Varsity
https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bik...050039677.html
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Old 01-13-20, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Digger Goreman View Post
Since he is 9 and will eventually outgrow the bike, and since you mentioned cable and pedal brakes, I would suggest a "transition bike"... one that has a hand/cable front brake and either just a coaster (foot) brake or coaster plus hand rear brake.
The kid is 9- a hand brake bike is quite easy for kids to handle at this age. There is no upside to coaster brakes at this age.

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Old 01-13-20, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert11 View Post
Realize this is a lot of questions, but any opinions would be most appreciated; even partially.
A few things to consider.

- trigger shifters are often easier for small hands to manipulate than grip shifters. This may mean something higher up in the lineup due to 8 or 9speed being the lowest drivetrain setup with trigger(not positive).
- most kids bikes with gears will come with low end Tourney derailleurs. Its almost inevitable, unless you want to spend over $400. Just know that you will most likely get cheap drivetrain components.
- many kids bikes have nutted axles. Its atrocious, but true. If you can find a bike with quick release wheels in the price you want and he like the bike- then perfect. There is no benefit to nutted wheels and its just a way to hit a price point/save costs for the bike brand.
- stay away from a suspension fork if possible. Many kids bikes have them and all that are on bikes under $500 are cheap and worse than a rigid fork. A rigid fork is lighter and isnt a moving part that could break. No 9 year old that is starting out on their first bigger bike needs suspension. And many at that age cant activate the suspension due to weight.
- A 1x crank is way better than multiple rings up front. A 1x8 or 1x9 is ideal for the age because it allows them to practice shifting without over complicating the experience by introducing more ring options.
- A crank that is over 152mm long is dumb. Its not beneficial, but i swear many bike brands assign their newest/dumbest employees to spec kids bikes so overly long cranks isnt uncommon.

A 24" wheel bike is on the larger size for a kid that is 4' tall, but he will obviously grow and its better to have the bike be big for him for a few months than have him grow out of a 20" bike in a few months.
All the things I mention are for quality since quality = easier use, more reliable, and lighter. That last thing- weight- is huge. Kids bikes are typically overbuilt and that means they are heavier than needed. Many 24" bikes, even from bike stores, weigh about 30# which is almost half the weight of a 4' kid. Its totally unnecessary, but its common. When you can drop 5# off a kid's 24" bike, that is a big % for the ratio of bike weight to rider weight.
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Old 01-13-20, 02:38 PM
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Some great thoughts above, as usual. I would only add that I agree with the idea of being a bit more modest in goals and execution here, simply because, in just a few years, he is probably going to be needing another bike of some sort. Whether that is a mountain, road, whatever, that bike is going to likely cost quite a bit more. This is what my folks did with me. When I turned fifteen, I was 6 feet tall, with long inseam and long arms. My dad is also 6 feet tall.. I probably wasn't going to grow a lot more. I rode all the time on my older, thrifty ten-speed and had outgrown it. Anyhoo, we went to a very respected LBS and my folks very generously bought me a gorgeous UniVega 10-speed, which I rode until just a few years ago when it was stolen. I am 55. Bike rode great 'til the end. And btw, that shop, it now has multiple locations in town and is going strong. They are honest. Oh--and I am now 6'1".

All this is out the window if you are a talented Craigslister or ebayer. Lots of deals there potentially, but it can be a lot of work. I am not good at it. Not patient enough or something.

Good luck. He is going to be thrilled!
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Old 01-13-20, 02:50 PM
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Check your height estimate. My oldest boy is 4ft and he's not even six yet. 24” wheels are likely the right size.

Ask the kid, unless you want to keep it a surprise, if he wants a bike for going fast and far, a bike for trails and bumps, or a bike for doing tricks. Or take him to the bike shop.

Opinions differ about price/quality. Front shocks on kid mountain bikes are usually pretty dire and they are heavy as f... Some people like the plus size tires for kid bikes instead, others think they’re unwieldy. Same goes for the rest of it. Mostly they come pretty cheap but can be upgraded. If you want as good as a grownup bike you pay the same.

If you get sticker shock remember a Stingray in today-dollars would be $5-600. It was 5 speed, had no suspension and was entirely steel.

Some more premium kid bikes are available mail order. Trailcraft, Spawn, Woom, Cleary for example.

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Old 01-13-20, 05:03 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by Digger Goreman View Post
Since he is 9 and will eventually outgrow the bike, and since you mentioned cable and pedal brakes, I would suggest a "transition bike"... one that has a hand/cable front brake and either just a coaster (foot) brake or coaster plus hand rear brake.

Eschew Roadmaster, Hyper, and most x-mart bikes like the plague... they aren't well made or put together with care.

Personally, Bob, I would let him "abuse" a used bike till he learns to care for his machine. That I would deem practical. Even better, if there is a bicycle co-op nearby, the two of you could build him the bike of his dreams and he would learn maintenance (with Granddad!) at a wonderful, young age....

For me, it has been 6 years of a used Trek that I still ride and have no wish to replace.

I chose the transition stage, but went with a 24" Walmart bike for my 9 year old Grand Daughter for this past Christmas. I had it shipped to my house, and had to service the axles, headset and BB. But the shifting was actually spot on, no need to mess with it. I had to get the wheels trued, the rear wasn't bad, the front was useless for braking... Why I went this route. Shiny caught her attention. She needed a bigger bike. And I KNOW this won't be well cared for at first. But learning to shift and brake was the goal, and if her new found love of speed takes root, I will find a better quality used machine for summer. So far, she enjoys the bike (Bike Shaped Object, some have called it...), is getting the hang of shifting the rear, we'll work on more as I get to ride with her... And she can finally outrun her nearly 7 year old brother. For now. As he will be moving from a 16" tired bike to 20 soon... He isn't quite ready for the same 24" bike she got. The 3 year old grand son, poor little guy, we just raised the seat on his strider bike. From as far down as it could go... It will be some time till he is ready for a pedal bike.

Abuse is expected for this purchase, so a Walmart bike fits the bill. Next bike, will be an improvement she will appreciate.
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Old 01-13-20, 06:17 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
Abuse is expected for this purchase, so a Walmart bike fits the bill. Next bike, will be an improvement she will appreciate.
I have no issues with Big box BSO's for kids. My kids first "gear bike" were Murray "Doom" 20" 1 X 5s. Taught them shifting, hand brakes, took their abuse, didn't cost me much. Yeah, I had to do some fine tuning on them, but not a lot.
They take some out of the sting out when they get run over in the driveway or stolen at the park.
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Old 01-13-20, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasTriker View Post
Check out this sub-forum https://www.bikeforums.net/recreational-family/

There have been many questions similar to the one you are asking. Sometimes components do matter. Kids have trouble with brake handles not sized properly and especially twist grip shifters that may be hard for a child to turn. Since you will want the lightest bike for the money, skip those with the near useless shocks. They add unnecessary weight to the bike while rarely offering any additional comfort.
interested in this topic as my twins are 4-1/2, and I will have to do something like this some day in the future.

I’m a non-fan of gripshifts myself, and have seen a few posts here suggesting avoiding them. Is it worthwhile when buying a kid’s first geared bike to get a 10spd mtb drivetrain and install? Then carry the drivetrain with the kid as s/he grows up? A Deore shifter/RD/cassette/chain combo can be had for $100 on eBay, and will still be going strong as the rider outgrows 24” and 26” wheels and graduates to grownup-sized bikes.

The obvious flaw in my plan is that presumably most 7spd gripshift bikes are freewheel, not cassette, and spaced narrower for older cogsets, so you might not even be able to bodge in a 9-from-10, Sheldon-Brown-style.

Last edited by Leinster; 01-13-20 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 01-13-20, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
interested in this topic as my twins are 4-1/2, and I will have to do something like this some day in the future.

I’m a non-fan of gripshifts myself, and have seen a few posts here suggesting avoiding them. Is it worthwhile when buying a kid’s first geared bike to get a 10spd mtb drivetrain and install? Then carry the drivetrain with the kid as s/he grows up? A Deore shifter/RD/cassette/chain combo can be had for $100 on eBay, and will still be going strong as the rider outgrows 24” and 26” wheels and graduates to grownup-sized bikes.

The obvious flaw in my plan is that presumably most 7spd gripshift bikes are freewheel, not cassette, and spaced narrower for older cogsets, so you might not even be able to bodge in a 9-from-10, Sheldon-Brown-style.
My oldest daughter, now 13, has had the same drivetrain on a couple MTBa. It's a 1x9 with old deore XT rd, modern square taper arms with narrow wide ring, and some shimano 9sp trigger shifter(alivio maybe?) and it's been great for her. I built up a 24" frame with it then transferred it to her current 26" frame.
Wheels were an issue on the 24" bike since the originals were freewheel, so some were built with old deore hubs. The wheels have stuck around and that bike is now used by my younger daughter.
It's worked out well to have some good components and transfer as needed.

It just doesnt coat too much to have decent components, especially when eventually selling the stuff on ebay or donating to a co-OP is considered.
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Old 01-13-20, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
My oldest daughter, now 13, has had the same drivetrain on a couple MTBa. It's a 1x9 with old deore XT rd, modern square taper arms with narrow wide ring, and some shimano 9sp trigger shifter(alivio maybe?) and it's been great for her. I built up a 24" frame with it then transferred it to her current 26" frame.
Wheels were an issue on the 24" bike since the originals were freewheel, so some were built with old deore hubs. The wheels have stuck around and that bike is now used by my younger daughter.
It's worked out well to have some good components and transfer as needed.

It just doesnt coat too much to have decent components, especially when eventually selling the stuff on ebay or donating to a co-OP is considered.
Yes, this is precisely what I was thinking of, and good to hear it’s been done. The wheel building sounds intimidating though...

Mind if I ask where you sourced the frames? Used? Or just buy a reasonably priced new bike and upgrade? Rim brake or disc?
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Old 01-13-20, 11:21 PM
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Buying good drivetrain is ok if the kid is a keen rider & can appreciate/look after it. To the average kid who don't look after their thing well though, might not last 1st frame - due to damage or theft. You also need a grandpa who's good at wrenching on bikes plus a decent boneyard of parts to mix & match... otherwise if you had to pay a pro to fit, might as well go splurge & buy a kiddy Cannondale.

Am currently in middle of restoring a pair of 24", one upright XDS girls hybrid one Avanti roadie probably 6-8yrs old. Frames & forks are aluminium & they're decently well built & lightweight. Stock drivetrain components are serviceable, not worth upgrading at this stage. 2 observations...

1, one is 24" Fractional and the other I assume is 24" decimal. There's nearly 2" difference in wheel diameter... so I discovered when I tried putting in a 24" tube.

2, gripshift is Evil!! Even I can barely twist it. Trigger or even friction levers would be better.
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Old 01-13-20, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
Yes, this is precisely what I was thinking of, and good to hear it’s been done. The wheel building sounds intimidating though...

Mind if I ask where you sourced the frames? Used? Or just buy a reasonably priced new bike and upgrade? Rim brake or disc?
The wheels arent simple, agreed. I pulled the hubs off a trashed wheelset from our local collective to keep costs down, but a build may not be possible or realistic for some.
ebay is hit/miss depending on when you check and budget.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-weinmann...UAAOSwG4Zdz4hJ
https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-silver-b...8AAOSw69lbrqTa
https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-black-bi...0AAOSwsxFd-SEX

we bought one bike used off craigslist- the 24". Swapped out most everything and dropped a bunch of weight. A project last tear was to repaint it with my youngest using spray.bike paint. Since this pic, the crank was swapped out for a Thorn brand kids crank, USAmadeco 1x ring, and cheap bashguard.



The other was a 26" wheel overstock mtb frame from Marin that I bought from randomebikeparts. Disc brakes were the only thing I needed to buy as I had the rest either from the prior bike or from collecting stuff. In hindsight, it probably would have been better to use an ebay carbon fork instead of the suspension fork because even at 13, she isnt compressing the fork mich(any?). It would be a couple pounds lighter with a rigid carbon fork and I bet that would be noticed more. Oh well.


Disclosure time- this effort hasn't made either of them better riders. I bet they would have as much fun and ride the same on stock bikes from the store. But I like to tinker, the costs are minimal to me once eventual selling is factored in, and I get them to help which if fun for one of us and teaches the other(who has fun and who learns is always changing).
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Old 01-14-20, 05:57 AM
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From OP:

Hi,

Thank you very much.
Just the info. I needed.

Thanks again,
Bob
-----------

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
A few things to consider.

- trigger shifters are often easier for small hands to manipulate than grip shifters. This may mean something higher up in the lineup due to 8 or 9speed being the lowest drivetrain setup with trigger(not positive).
- most kids bikes with gears will come with low end Tourney derailleurs. Its almost inevitable, unless you want to spend over $400. Just know that you will most likely get cheap drivetrain components.
- many kids bikes have nutted axles. Its atrocious, but true. If you can find a bike with quick release wheels in the price you want and he like the bike- then perfect. There is no benefit to nutted wheels and its just a way to hit a price point/save costs for the bike brand.
- stay away from a suspension fork if possible. Many kids bikes have them and all that are on bikes under $500 are cheap and worse than a rigid fork. A rigid fork is lighter and isnt a moving part that could break. No 9 year old that is starting out on their first bigger bike needs suspension. And many at that age cant activate the suspension due to weight.
- A 1x crank is way better than multiple rings up front. A 1x8 or 1x9 is ideal for the age because it allows them to practice shifting without over complicating the experience by introducing more ring options.
- A crank that is over 152mm long is dumb. Its not beneficial, but i swear many bike brands assign their newest/dumbest employees to spec kids bikes so overly long cranks isnt uncommon.

A 24" wheel bike is on the larger size for a kid that is 4' tall, but he will obviously grow and its better to have the bike be big for him for a few months than have him grow out of a 20" bike in a few months.
All the things I mention are for quality since quality = easier use, more reliable, and lighter. That last thing- weight- is huge. Kids bikes are typically overbuilt and that means they are heavier than needed. Many 24" bikes, even from bike stores, weigh about 30# which is almost half the weight of a 4' kid. Its totally unnecessary, but its common. When you can drop 5# off a kid's 24" bike, that is a big % for the ratio of bike weight to rider weight.
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Old 01-14-20, 06:15 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Disclosure time- this effort hasn't made either of them better riders. I bet they would have as much fun and ride the same on stock bikes from the store. But I like to tinker, the costs are minimal to me once eventual selling is factored in, and I get them to help which if fun for one of us and teaches the other(who has fun and who learns is always changing).
The store bike will help my Grand Daughter be a better rider, by summer. At which I will ask her a lot of questions, and take her on more rides. Being an hours drive away means she doesn't get to help me often, nor do I get to rude when I want. Yet I always take a bike. In fact, getting ready to leave a bike over there. Asking her more questions will help me get her going in the right direction... One that she shapes herself.
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Old 01-14-20, 06:16 AM
  #19  
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From OP (again)

Hello,

Great information.
Thanks to all who took the time to write it all out, and explain, for me, in such detail.
Really appreciated.

Might someone offer a few comment on the frame style for a Boy.
Don't want him to be teased.

When i grew up, Boys and Mens bikes always had the absolutely straight bar from front to back.

Now I see the label boys bikes that have a sloping front to rear bar.

Are they "uni-sex" now ?

Or ?

Can someone explain this, please.

Would be a road bike; not a mountain stype bike. Nearly all riding would be on paved roads and sidewalks.

Thanks again,
Bob
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Old 01-14-20, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
The store bike will help my Grand Daughter be a better rider, by summer. At which I will ask her a lot of questions, and take her on more rides. Being an hours drive away means she doesn't get to help me often, nor do I get to rude when I want. Yet I always take a bike. In fact, getting ready to leave a bike over there. Asking her more questions will help me get her going in the right direction... One that she shapes herself.
Seems like a really cool plan on your part.
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Old 01-14-20, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert11 View Post
Might someone offer a few comment on the frame style for a Boy.
Don't want him to be teased.
When i grew up, Boys and Mens bikes always had the absolutely straight bar from front to back.
Now I see the label boys bikes that have a sloping front to rear bar.
Are they "uni-sex" now ?
Can someone explain this, please.
Would be a road bike; not a mountain stype bike. Nearly all riding would be on paved roads and sidewalks.
Basically all kids bikes have a sloping top tube- it lowers the standover height which is often a big issue for kids. There are usually no differences between girls and boys bikes, except color/aesthetic. Some are unisex, sure. A black bike, red bike, orange bike, green bike, etc is a bike- any kid can like that or dislike the color. My daughter chose a navy blue paint for her bike- no idea why, but its now dark blue.

Also, most geared kids bikes are 'mountain bike style' in appearance. If its a road bike, it will have drop bars and even those have sloping top tubes.
Find a color that works and go for it.
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Old 01-14-20, 11:44 AM
  #22  
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My first question would be how do the parents ride?
Any at all?

If the parents are avid cyclists, match the kid to the parents, and perhaps discuss the project with them.

If the parents aren't avid cyclists, I'd probably go with the 24" MTB. Don't be heavily concerned with speeds/features/etc.
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Old 01-14-20, 11:54 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Seems like a really cool plan on your part.
I thought so at the time, still do!

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
My first question would be how do the parents ride?
Any at all?

If the parents are avid cyclists, match the kid to the parents, and perhaps discuss the project with them.

If the parents aren't avid cyclists, I'd probably go with the 24" MTB. Don't be heavily concerned with speeds/features/etc.
In my case, her mom has a 1x7 Schwinn cruiser. She rides maybe twice a month when nice. My son has my older Gary Fisher MTB. Tires have been flat for over a year. Irks me, but it is what it is. But I remain hopeful all the same. Life has been stressful for them this past year, adopting another girl, building a house, questions about staying in his present job or accepting another offer (his company offered him a package he couldn't say no to, which included a big raise)...

Lots of things to consider when the parents aren't as avid as we are...
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Old 01-14-20, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zjrog View Post
I thought so at the time, still do!



In my case, her mom has a 1x7 Schwinn cruiser. She rides maybe twice a month when nice. My son has my older Gary Fisher MTB. Tires have been flat for over a year. Irks me, but it is what it is. But I remain hopeful all the same. Life has been stressful for them this past year, adopting another girl, building a house, questions about staying in his present job or accepting another offer (his company offered him a package he couldn't say no to, which included a big raise)...

Lots of things to consider when the parents aren't as avid as we are...
Does the kid more or less fit the Gary Fisher?

Perhaps invest in a weekend "Grandpa Tune-up" involving the kid.

Are the tires good... two new tires as part of the tune-up? Other components? Updating shifters? Chain?
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Old 01-14-20, 01:04 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Does the kid more or less fit the Gary Fisher?

Perhaps invest in a weekend "Grandpa Tune-up" involving the kid.

Are the tires good... two new tires as part of the tune-up? Other components? Updating shifters? Chain?
I wish it did, it's a 20" TMB frame, with an early suspension fork. It has an upper end Suntour system on it presently. Tires WERE good, can't say right now for certain.

She is 9 years old and 58" tall, 24" inseam... Or so her mom says. She is quite tall though. She almost fit my wife's 700C hybrid, but just not close enough to look at 26" wheeled bikes. I need to get her comfortable raising her seat though.

Grandpa time is coming. She has expressed an interest in longer rides.
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