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Brake dust and "London Throat"

Old 02-26-20, 09:13 PM
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Brake dust and "London Throat"

https://pricetags.ca/2020/02/26/lond...s-bad-for-you/

Originally Posted by From the article:
The metal particles in the dust from worn-out brake pads on vehicles can be just as harmful as diesel emissions. Called BAD for Brake Dust Abrasion, studies done by King’s College London found that the metallic dust from brake pads cause lung inflammation and “reduce immunity, increasing the risk of respiratory infections.”
Probably not news for most people here, but a reminder.

Also, one of the comments on the article says that Teslas, with regenerative braking, get longer life from brake pads. I can't vouch for that, but interesting if true.
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Old 02-26-20, 09:32 PM
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In its life my truck will burn up maybe a couple pounds of brake pads and tens of thousands of gallons of gas. Tell me which to worry more about
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Old 02-26-20, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
a couple pounds of brake pads and tens of thousands of gallons of gas
Why not both?
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Old 02-26-20, 10:20 PM
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Why isnt it called BDA?
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Old 02-26-20, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Why isnt it called BDA?
Because that would make it the British Dental Association. It's a real mans life in the BDA.
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Old 02-27-20, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rigsson View Post
Because that would make it the British Dental Association. It's a real mans life in the BDA.
Or Battle Damage Assessment. That's already taken too.
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Old 02-27-20, 01:27 AM
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Called BAD for Brake Dust Abrasion
How about BAD for Aggravated Bloviating Dyslexia?
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Old 02-27-20, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Why isnt it called BDA?
BAD is probably correct, for Brake Abrasion Dust which makes more sense than Brake Dust Abrasion.
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Old 02-27-20, 03:25 AM
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Another source of pollution they don't mention is from tyre abrasion. It always amuses me when I see these electric cars zooming around with 'zero emissions' tags on the back. They aren't zero emission and never will be. I've never seen a figure on it before, though, and I find the figure of 55% from non-exhaust sources.

Another thing the article doesn't mention is that, somewhat counter intuitively, us cyclist are actually breathing in less pollution than the car drivers - unless they have filters on the air intakes which, I understand, few cars do.
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Old 02-27-20, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jgwilliams View Post
Another thing the article doesn't mention is that, somewhat counter intuitively, us cyclist are actually breathing in less pollution than the car drivers - unless they have filters on the air intakes which, I understand, few cars do.
Pretty much all cars nowadays have filters on the interior air intake that stop dust, pollen and other particles of that size. And I don't see how cyclists that ride on the street and don't wear a mask, would be breathing in less pollution than car drivers, even if said drivers would sit in a convertible with the top open; even a slowly going bicyclist is still breathing more rapidly than a sitting person.
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Old 02-27-20, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by subgrade View Post
And I don't see how cyclists that ride on the street and don't wear a mask, would be breathing in less pollution than car drivers, even if said drivers would sit in a convertible with the top open; even a slowly going bicyclist is still breathing more rapidly than a sitting person.
Like I said, counter intuitive.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...d-routes-study
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/23...s-study-finds/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/10/...air-pollution/

And don't overestimate the value of masks. I've seen other reports that suggest they're pretty useless. I tried one for a few days once and found it restricted my breathing so much that it hampered my performance but I gather that they're not particularly effective either. I believe, too, that pollen filters are not much good against diesel particulates, which are much smaller, but I've not actually researched that.

Last edited by jgwilliams; 02-27-20 at 04:27 AM. Reason: Add bit about masks
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Old 02-27-20, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jgwilliams View Post
Like I said, counter intuitive.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...d-routes-study
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/23...s-study-finds/
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/10/...air-pollution/

And don't overestimate the value of masks. I've seen other reports that suggest they're pretty useless. I tried one for a few days once and found it restricted my breathing so much that it hampered my performance but I gather that they're not particularly effective either. I believe, too, that pollen filters are not much good against diesel particulates, which are much smaller, but I've not actually researched that.
Ah ok, if you factor in the journey time, it makes sense. Still that works only with congested traffic where bicycle is the fatest vehicle. If the journey times don't differ much, the results would be very different.

Regarding masks, I surely don't overestimate them as I've never used one and don't intend to in foreseeable future
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Old 02-27-20, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by subgrade View Post
Ah ok, if you factor in the journey time, it makes sense. Still that works only with congested traffic where bicycle is the fatest vehicle. If the journey times don't differ much, the results would be very different.
I don't think it's as simple as that, though. I think a lot of the issue with cars is that the air intakes are nicely positioned to draw in air from the exhaust of the vehicle in front. There's also the fact that cyclists 'air intakes' are situated higher up and so are further out of the low-lying smog. Either way, it makes me happy to think that my commute is so much healthier on so many levels than the sheep in their Chelsea tractors, as well as being so much cheaper.
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Old 02-27-20, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
In its life my truck will burn up maybe a couple pounds of brake pads and tens of thousands of gallons of gas. Tell me which to worry more about
The tailpipe emissions of your vehicle are regulated. The non-tailpipe emissions are not.

Which is why particulate matter from brake pads and tires is now a larger component of PM emissions from vehicles than your tens of thousands of gallons of gas or diesel*.

But it is possible to walk AND chew gum at the same time. For example, regulate both tetraethyllead in gasoline AND lead additives in paint.

-mr. bill

*exception - certain VW vehicles and their cheat code

Last edited by mr_bill; 02-27-20 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 02-27-20, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
In its life my truck will burn up maybe a couple pounds of brake pads and tens of thousands of gallons of gas. Tell me which to worry more about
Even if you're right about which poses the worse problem, isn't your logic "I shouldn't worry about getting stabbed because getting shot is worse"?
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Old 02-27-20, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
*exception - certain VW vehicles and their cheat code
I seem to remember that at some point pretty much all major car mfrs admitted to cheating, as at least at that point in time there was no known ways for diesel engines to comply with the latest emission regulations. VW were just the first and most publicized.
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Old 02-27-20, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jgwilliams View Post
Another source of pollution they don't mention is from tyre abrasion. It always amuses me when I see these electric cars zooming around with 'zero emissions' tags on the back. They aren't zero emission and never will be. I've never seen a figure on it before, though, and I find the figure of 55% from non-exhaust sources.
Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles

(From The Atlantic, Americans Shouldn’t Have to Drive, but the Law Insists on It. Behind a porous paywall. They let you read five free articles a month.)

-mr. bill
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Old 02-27-20, 08:40 AM
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But, officer, I always roll through stop signs to reduce brake dust emissions, doing my part to save the planet
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Old 02-27-20, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Even if you're right about which poses the worse problem, isn't your logic "I shouldn't worry about getting stabbed because getting shot is worse"?
No, that's a terrible analogy.
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Old 02-27-20, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles

(From The Atlantic, Americans Shouldn’t Have to Drive, but the Law Insists on It. Behind a porous paywall. They let you read five free articles a month.)

-mr. bill
Thanks, very interesting articles.
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Old 02-27-20, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
No, that's a terrible analogy.

It wasn't the analogy that was terrible, it was your logic. Your logic is "a is really bad, so I shouldn't waste time worrying about b because it's not as bad."
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Old 02-27-20, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jgwilliams View Post
...cyclist are actually breathing in less pollution than the car drivers - unless they have filters on the air intakes which, I understand, few cars do.
Are you referring to "cabin air filters"? These are now pretty standard equipment, but I don't know when that began, mid 1990s? (My first cars with them were 2000 Hondas, an Accord and an Odyssey.) They used to be difficult to service due to being added late in the design cycle for the first cars. You had to partially disassemble a portion of the dash to reach them. Now, many are just behind the glove compartment box, which has a quick release design. I would not purchase a car without one, that's for certain.

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Old 02-27-20, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
It wasn't the analogy that was terrible, it was your logic. Your logic is "a is really bad, so I shouldn't waste time worrying about b because it's not as bad."
My worries for my own cause of death are as follows:
1: heart defect, inherited
2. A genetic disposition toward prostate cancer
3. heart disease from being fed artificial saturated fat through my childhood and into early adulthood and/or type 2 diabetes from eating "low fat" products with increased sugar because everyone believed that was healthier than butter
4. cancer from breathing diesel soot and eating out of plastic containers all my life.
5. traumatic misadventure

On the other hand, this researcher in her study merely poisoned some microbes with vanadium, and they recovered. Vanadium is present in only trace amounts in any of the components or materials under discussion - soot is mostly carbon. But in the press she uses words like "worryingly" and invented both "London Throat" vanadium poisoning instead of irritation from soot, and the acronym BAD for what everyone else calls brake dust. So yeah she wants my attention, but does she deserves it?
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Old 02-27-20, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
My worries for my own cause of death are as follows....
Last time I checked, most people have two lungs.

Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
On the other hand, this researcher in her study merely poisoned some microbes with vanadium, and they recovered.
BTW, rather than relying on press reports, you might want to bother to read the actual science. You'll find that YOUR summary is rather incorrect.

-mr. bill

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Old 02-27-20, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
My worries for my own cause of death are as follows:
1: heart defect, inherited
2. A genetic disposition toward prostate cancer
3. heart disease from being fed artificial saturated fat through my childhood and into early adulthood and/or type 2 diabetes from eating "low fat" products with increased sugar because everyone believed that was healthier than butter
4. cancer from breathing diesel soot and eating out of plastic containers all my life.
5. traumatic misadventure

On the other hand, this researcher in her study merely poisoned some microbes with vanadium, and they recovered. Vanadium is present in only trace amounts in any of the components or materials under discussion - soot is mostly carbon. But in the press she uses words like "worryingly" and invented both "London Throat" vanadium poisoning instead of irritation from soot, and the acronym BAD for what everyone else calls brake dust. So yeah she wants my attention, but does she deserves it?

Honestly, no one cares about your attention, and it's really beside the point. You've completely misdescribed what the research did. Not "some microbes", human immune system cells, and they were exhibiting transient inflammatory responses and diminished anti-bacterial effectiveness, That suggests very strongly that repeated exposures to this, say like on a daily commute, could definitely lead to infection, chronic inflammation, and lots of major problems down the road. Yes, it's early days on the research, but given the pervasiveness of this stuff, I think it would be absurd not to look into it further.
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