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Toe Clips or MTB Cleats for Urban Riding

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Toe Clips or MTB Cleats for Urban Riding

Old 03-02-20, 09:33 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Yours was not the only misinformation that I was pointing out. Your statement implied that platform pedals were faster.



That's your choice. I don't see the issue with needing to ride in any shoe possible. Road shoes may not be a good choice for off-bike walking but mountain bike shoes are just like "normal" shoes. I've walked most of a marathon in a pair of them. I've hike-a-biked on many mountain bike rides in them. I've walked many miles in grocery stores and HelMarts while on tour in them.



I read your post differently. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong but your post could be read as implying that platforms are faster.
Good to know there is nothing for us to disagree about . . . .

I'm indifferent to what types of shoes/pedals that anyone else uses. I just gave reasons for why I prefer platform pedals for commuting which is by the way what the OP asked.

By the way, I don't think there is any reasonable way that anyone could think that I was arguing that platform pedals were faster. Post 35 nailed it which pointed out that the pro road racers shifted to clipless in the 80s even toe clips and straps are still used on the track. They know a heck of a lot more about going fast than I ever will.

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Old 03-02-20, 09:45 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
Again, do you miss the uplift for quick acceleration and foot placement of toe clips and MTB pedals. Can't quick acceleration can get you out of trouble while urban riding?

Few of us are quicker or more explosive than a good BMX rider on platforms

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Old 03-02-20, 09:53 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post

High Performance Velodrome (Track?) Sprinters still use Toe Clips and Straps albeit doubles?...Thanks,mjac
yep --- Dura Ace track pedals with errebi sprint double toe straps -- I've pulled straight out of many clipless pedal systems on the upstroke - even pulled up so hard on a pair of Look Delta cleats that I broke the cleat --- admittedly never tried the Speedplay Zero track pedal though




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Old 03-02-20, 10:58 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
yep --- Dura Ace track pedals with errebi sprint double toe straps -- I've pulled straight out of many clipless pedal systems on the upstroke - even pulled up so hard on a pair of Look Delta cleats that I broke the cleat --- admittedly never tried the Speedplay Zero track pedal though



I'll be darned. I guesse that says something.

A guy here, 63Rickert, told me back in the day before Clipless pedalstrack and road racers using their toe clips and straps would help locking in their shoe to the pedal by attaching a leather square the exact inside dimensions of their pedal to the bottom of their shoe and insert it into the pedal.
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Old 03-02-20, 11:01 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
Few of us are quicker or more explosive than a good BMX rider on platforms
You have a point and many of them are using flats with spikes and they get by just fine.
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Old 03-02-20, 11:07 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
yep --- Dura Ace track pedals with errebi sprint double toe straps -- I've pulled straight out of many clipless pedal systems on the upstroke - even pulled up so hard on a pair of Look Delta cleats that I broke the cleat --- admittedly never tried the Speedplay Zero track pedal though



Is there a reason the bike and car are the same color. They both have great lines. The bike totally stripped down fixed speed with the ram shaped bars and there are the vintage toe clips and straps. I could not take my eyes off of both of them. A rag top to boot.
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Old 03-02-20, 12:32 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
Is there a reason the bike and car are the same color. They both have great lines. The bike totally stripped down fixed speed with the ram shaped bars and there are the vintage toe clips and straps. I could not take my eyes off of both of them. A rag top to boot.
The bike is a custom, so I had the painter use the same paint code as my car -- (ive since sold the car, but loved it while I had it -- in its place is an infinitely less attractive , but many times more practical - Toyota Tacoma - having to make "grown up decisions" sucks sometimes - )


Those pedals are technically vintage - but very similar systems are still in use as track racing technology - while not stagnant - moves along slower than the rest of the cycling world

None of these pics are mine - I snagged em online -- but

The first 2 pics are of MArty Nothstein at the 1996 and 2000 Olympics using the same pedal setup except with clips -- (with this particular pedal and style of cleat- the clips are optional)





Much more recent World Cup pic of trackies still using double straps ---- or a wide single strap in the case of the bottom pic -- cant tell what the base pedal is, but it is not uncommon to use a clipless pedal with a bracket to use straps in conjunction with






-- those old cycling shoes still very much had cleats to use in conjunction with the straps too -- it made a very secure connection -- but tight straps can make your feet fall asleep and its even harder to disengage from an old school system when the cleat is in place than it is even a difficult clipless system


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Old 03-02-20, 01:22 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
You have a point and many of them are using flats with spikes and they get by just fine.

Yes -- guys went plenty fast on platforms and "beartraps"

Yours truly on platforms with a pair of Pumas at a national years ago




Kinda' fun looking up some of thes pics from the early 80's !

Some more cool old school pics I dug up online ---- these guys' weren't afraid to send it on platforms with Vans





------- Buuuuuut ----- the new school has almost universally adopted clipless pedals , even the kiddoes -- time marches on --- but no, in an urban setting I don't think most of us would be leaving much on the table at all if we just rolled around on flats



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Old 03-02-20, 02:57 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages and uses for both to help people decide, especially beginning riders?
This response shows the kind of creep in an argument that will get you shredded in court by a talented advocate or judge. The discussion itself may have no merit if applied to beginning riders (who do not pull up to accelerate). Beginners may be best served by not riding in urban settings until their skills become more refined.

Ugh. These threads...
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Old 03-02-20, 03:39 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
Again, do you miss the uplift for quick acceleration and foot placement of toe clips and MTB pedals. Can't quick acceleration can get you out of trouble while urban riding?
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/w...-stroke-power/
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Old 03-02-20, 03:49 PM
  #61  
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I know it wasn't an option, but for me platforms are my preferred urban pedal. I have had 3 urban spills over the past decade. All of them involved being unable to be able to unclip quickly enough in unexpected stops. I assume full responsibility for not being well trained enough to unclip on time. Despite having logged many more miles on platform pedals, I have had no such issues. I have had several instances where I couldn't get clipped in quickly enough from a stop and slowed others in the process. I have also had times where I thought I had clipped but hadn't and my foot rolled off the front of the pedal. Again, user error. I have had no such issues with platforms.
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Old 03-02-20, 03:52 PM
  #62  
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Newly returned to riding and installed a set of toe clips with straps for my Cannondale Quick 5 disc bike to ride urban trails that include both paved and unpaved areas and over freeway overpasses and bridges locally here in Kitsap county outside of Seattle WA. Midway thru the last ride I nearly catapulted myself over the bridge guardrail trying to struggle with my hand to help place my foot into the left toe clip.
This convinced me to finally try a set of Exustar MTB clipless pedals and a pair of Tommaso 200 vibram bottomed shoes I am just now going to install. Hopefully I will have a better outcome and become a better rider. :^)
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Old 03-02-20, 03:57 PM
  #63  
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I thought this was pretty interesting.

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Old 03-02-20, 04:41 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
All I know is Pro Track Racers race with Toe Clips and double straps because their uplift is so strong there feet pull out of pedal cleat systems. That is real world. Not words on a piece of paper.FWIW.
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Old 03-02-20, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
This response shows the kind of creep in an argument that will get you shredded in court by a talented advocate or judge. The discussion itself may have no merit if applied to beginning riders (who do not pull up to accelerate). Beginners may be best served by not riding in urban settings until their skills become more refined.

Ugh. These threads...
You lost me. Asking someone what are the advantages and disadvantages of toe clips and the advantages and disadvantages of MTB Cleated Systems in Urban Riding to give people information to help them decide which system to use, especially beginning riders is creep? You don't think beginning riders need information? You don't think having a cost-benefit analysis would benefit a beginning rider deciding how much to invest initially? You don't think beginning riders ride in urban settings? That is where they start. In familiar surroundings. They are not going out on a country road and doing 40 miles. Like I said you lost me. Information is key to retain people in the sport once they decide to try it. Maybe the information will lead to neither and lead to a flat for beginners. But you need information.You are saying information is a detriment? Explain.
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Old 03-02-20, 05:06 PM
  #66  
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Can't speak for PG but this is is place BFers can argue about valve stem caps for pages and pages. Sometimes hard to tell if someone is really trying to get info or just start wars. Not necessarily a slam against you.
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Old 03-02-20, 05:18 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
All I know is Pro Track Racers race with Toe Clips and double straps because their uplift is so strong there feet pull out of pedal cleat systems. That is real world. Not words on a piece of paper.FWIW.
Yes -- those guys (I did too - because when youre not fast enough, you try to mimic the training of the guys and gals who are ) - would perform single leg trainer drills, alternating one leg and then the other for extended time periods to concentrate on a consistent application of power through the entire pedal stroke. Ive seen a professional level trackie doing trainer drills at over 160 rpm with a completely still upper body.- and you don't get that kind of control without mastering a smooth round pedal stroke

But admittedly, some disciplines don't require much more than average rpm and you can get by with a choppier (relatively speaking) pedal stroke if you are stromg, because lower rpm's generally mean bigger gears too

Tracks a lot of fun ! - I know that is not the main point of conversation of this thread but I'll say if anyone is within a reasonable distance of a track, they should try it at least once . Its not all 225 lb muscled up dudes going 40 mph -- there are plenty of young people and men and women of all ages who have a blast riding track
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Old 03-02-20, 05:21 PM
  #68  
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[QUOTE=DMC707;21350319]Yes -- guys went plenty fast on platforms and "beartraps"

Yours truly on platforms with a pair of Pumas at a national years ago




Kinda' fun looking up some of thes pics from the early 80's !

Some more cool old school pics I dug up online ---- these guys' weren't afraid to send it on platforms with Vans





------- Buuuuuut ----- the new school has almost universally adopted clipless pedals , even the kiddoes -- time marches on --- but no, in an urban setting I don't think most of us would be leaving much on the table at all if we just rolled around on flats



[/QUO


You look like you were ready to bite somebody's nose off. How competitive were you back in the day?

If you were on a flat, maybe with some spikes, in an urban setting or cityscape there sure wouldn't be anything hanging your foot up on the pedal and as you just indicated there are plenty of guys who went fast enough on flats so the regular rider isn't losing anything and maybe gaining something, especially a beginner. I am going to have to rethink this. I thought you lost too much.

Did you catch the guy in the third picture with the round sole bite pedals and the belt loop rear tubes. I guesse it was fun looking at this stuff.
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Old 03-02-20, 05:44 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
All I know is Pro Track Racers race with Toe Clips and double straps because their uplift is so strong there feet pull out of pedal cleat systems. That is real world. Not words on a piece of paper.FWIW.
Track racers are certainly a real world measure. A world that we don't live in as urban riders. What do you think they would use if they had to stop and start frequently?
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Old 03-02-20, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
Yes -- those guys (I did too - because when youre not fast enough, you try to mimic the training of the guys and gals who are ) - would perform single leg trainer drills, alternating one leg and then the other for extended time periods to concentrate on a consistent application of power through the entire pedal stroke. Ive seen a professional level trackie doing trainer drills at over 160 rpm with a completely still upper body.- and you don't get that kind of control without mastering a smooth round pedal stroke

But admittedly, some disciplines don't require much more than average rpm and you can get by with a choppier (relatively speaking) pedal stroke if you are stromg, because lower rpm's generally mean bigger gears too

Tracks a lot of fun ! - I know that is not the main point of conversation of this thread but I'll say if anyone is within a reasonable distance of a track, they should try it at least once . Its not all 225 lb muscled up dudes going 40 mph -- there are plenty of young people and men and women of all ages who have a blast riding track
I think what you are saying is very relevant because there are people saying and articles written saying uplift and a smooth round pedal stroke does not exist so you should not aspire for it. When here in an extreme example track racers not only design their equipment to take advantage of it but do specific routines to train for it. Real World.

Now which one is it, BMX or Track? Big difference. One involves dirt.
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Old 03-02-20, 05:51 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Track racers are certainly a real world measure. A world that we don't live in as urban riders. What do you think they would use if they had to stop and start frequently?
It is indeed an extreme example where an independent assistant cinches down the straps to an incredible degree where the rider would have no chance of getting his foot out at all and has to be caught at the end of a race. But, it validates the existence of uplift and a round pedal stroke delivering power through the whole stroke and perfecting this. Maybe not to the degree of a Track Pro but to some degree that would improve you efficiency and enjoyment of the sport...Thanks,mjac

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Old 03-02-20, 06:32 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
The bike is a custom, so I had the painter use the same paint code as my car -- (ive since sold the car, but loved it while I had it -- in its place is an infinitely less attractive , but many times more practical - Toyota Tacoma - having to make "grown up decisions" sucks sometimes - )


Those pedals are technically vintage - but very similar systems are still in use as track racing technology - while not stagnant - moves along slower than the rest of the cycling world

None of these pics are mine - I snagged em online -- but

The first 2 pics are of MArty Nothstein at the 1996 and 2000 Olympics using the same pedal setup except with clips -- (with this particular pedal and style of cleat- the clips are optional)





Much more recent World Cup pic of trackies still using double straps ---- or a wide single strap in the case of the bottom pic -- cant tell what the base pedal is, but it is not uncommon to use a clipless pedal with a bracket to use straps in conjunction with






-- those old cycling shoes still very much had cleats to use in conjunction with the straps too -- it made a very secure connection -- but tight straps can make your feet fall asleep and its even harder to disengage from an old school system when the cleat is in place than it is even a difficult clipless system


Lets take care of first things first. You traded my bronze Vette Convertable, I said Convertable, that we thought so much of we painted our Bike the same color, for a "Toyota Tacoma."?A Toyota Tacoma. I thought the sentence was going to read, " for a Shelby Cobra." But no, a Toyota Tacoma.That's like having no uplift in your pedal stroke.

Back to to the subject matter. Those guys are animals.No wonder people are afraid to show up at a track, total intimidation. I never thought of that, they actually use a cleated system and toe clips with double straps. From the looks of them though they are turning some serious Gs.

Fella 63 Rickert told me during the Golden Era of cycling in the 20s and 30s Track Racing was a serious money sport. That and Boxing the only two.
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Old 03-02-20, 08:21 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by mjac View Post
It is indeed an extreme example where an independent assistant finches down the straps to an incredible degree where the rider would have no chance of getting his foot out at all and has to be caught at the end of a race. But, it validates the existence of uplift and a round pedal stroke delivering power through the whole stroke and perfecting this. Maybe not to the degree of a Track Pro but to some degree that would improve you efficiency and enjoyment of the sport...Thanks,mjac
Did you see the video I posted? A pro rider lost efficiency with clips. There are not going to be any meaningful measurable gains at all in an urban cycling environment. Urban bicycling isn't a sport.
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Old 03-02-20, 09:01 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Did you see the video I posted? A pro rider lost efficiency with clips. There are not going to be any meaningful measurable gains at all in an urban cycling environment. Urban bicycling isn't a sport.
Just take a look at the post right above yours by DMC707 and look at the first two pictures and DMC707s descriptions of the pictures and the exact exercises these riders do to perfect a circulor pedal motion and uplift and the equipment they use. That is why Marty Nothstein in the 1996 and 2000 Olympics pinned all his hopes and dreams of a lifetime on a toe clip and double strap system because he lost efficiency with it? I don't think so. This isn't some study, this is what this guy settled on after years of training, testing and experience to fulfill a lifetime dream. If uplift and circular pedal motion exist and it does because these guys practice it, then it exists whenever a pedal is turned. It is transferable to the degree the rider wants to work on it to where it is instictive. Not to the degree of Marty Nothstein but to a degree. Indeed Clipless systems that are used today evolved from Clipless systems designed for racing in the 50s.

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Old 03-02-20, 10:29 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Did you see the video I posted? A pro rider lost efficiency with clips. There are not going to be any meaningful measurable gains at all in an urban cycling environment. Urban bicycling isn't a sport.

This term is so vague that it's main function is to fuel disagreements.

Sport?
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