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Yelling from the passenger seat

Old 04-14-20, 09:18 AM
  #101  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Yea, I guess our morals are just different.

If you want your morals to let others suffer abuse despite an easy fix that harms no one except an idea, it means you place more value on an idea than preventing direct harm to someone. You say you believe most people would side with you? Probably, the idea of rags to riches / the American Dream is much more important than what actually happens to the majority of people, right? Ironically, every totalitarian regime ever also put ideas before people.
Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
Livedarklions display of cognitive dissonance demonstrates why it is such a subtly effective defense tool. Fashion itself is an intentional form of deception that takes advantage of the tendency of people to just assume that someone's appearance accurately reflects their own interpretation of the appearance. Cycling jerseys are not military uniforms and it's perfectly legal and rational for anyone to wear one if it deters potentially dangerous harassment.

Wear a flag jersey, wear a jersey saying "I support the troops", wear an American eagle.

Don't steal valor. You rob people who have earned it when you do it.

Also, I kind of think you're full of crap, most abusive drivers I've encountered aren't coming in slow enough to look at what I'm wearing.

And you clearly don't know what "cognitive dissonance" means.
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Old 04-14-20, 09:20 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Really? I almost never see cars actually stop and a stop sign. Stop means you rest. Maybe in the US it is different, but in Europe most people will still be rolling ever so slightly. That, too, in theory is breaking the law.

And how about motorcycles? It is against the law for them to ride between lanes*, yet I never see them being called out for it when they do it to avoid traffic.

Rules are meant to keep society in check, does not mean that they are absolute. Matter of fact is, the passenger in the car is just pissed off that they cannot do the same - simply run a stop sign. That and probably a general dislike for cyclists because they feel infringed upon (a la "how dare they make me slow down and wait to overtake them, they shouldn't be on the road").
* It's illegal in most states.

In some states (currently 2 that I know of in the US, but soon to be 4-5 with any luck) it's legal, with some restrictions for motorcycles to lane split. More states have made it legal for motorcycles to run red lights after waiting for a period of time (because lots of road sensors don't detect motorcycles).

Also, if you actually go look on you tube, motorcyclists get yelled at (and threatened, run off the road, hit, etc) quite often by a$$hats in cars that think they are law enforcement....and this happens in places where lane splitting is legal. There's a bunch of videos of people in CA opening their car doors intentionally taking out motorcycles on the interstate.
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Old 04-14-20, 09:31 AM
  #103  
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Okay ….. Hmmmm ….

First, I am not so judgmental about others.

I would never wear a “Veteran” jersey because I feel it is an honor I have not earned, and I have a lot of respect for those that have earned it (though of course I know some of them were crooks, losers, criminals, and just bad people, some who joined up to stay out of jail, and continued to be criminals in uniform. In general though …. (I am not fetishizing ex-servicemen, I am saying, but still respect the majority for their choice.)

If someone wears a “Vet” jersey not to claim honor, but to increase safety …. I have a hard time complaining. And I have been coal-rolled, forced off the road and been a target for projectiles …. And none of that is fun and most of it is quite seriously potentially deadly (any projectile traveling 40-50 mph hitting a human body is potentially deadly, and the crash following just makes it worse.)

I might wear a “US Army” jersey or something …. Not my style, I don’t like to advertise Anything …. But I think that would be fine---For Me. I don’t have the right to tell others to adopt my values.

I am a little sensitive about the “stolen valor” idea, I don’t know why. But in this case …. Veteran or not, the person in question is not trying to aggrandize himself falsely. I cannot find sufficient reason to criticize.

On the other hand …. I can see why a person might think that wearing a “Veteran” jersey would be inappropriate in general for non-vets …. After all, I think it would be inappropriate for me.

So …. Not much here to debate, really. Freedom includes the holding of contrary opinions …. And accepting others’ right to hold said opinion. And freedom, to me, certainly includes choice of garments. I don’t think a person even needs to use “increased safety” as a defense. So long as the person sis not in any other way trying to benefit from a claim of being a vet …..


After all, plenty of people wear “Property of (insert sports team) and nobody thinks they are really on that team (unless I were to wear a “Competitive Eating Team” jersey.)

I cannot see where morality is really involved here. I don’t think it would be “immoral” for me to wear a “Vet” jersey while riding—I just personally prefer not to. I cannot see where I would be committing wrongdoing, causing harm, taking what I had not earned …. Transgressing any social code …. It’s just a shirt.

And further …. Sometimes the ends Do justify the means.

I just got into a slightly warm debate over reporting on CCP virus deaths …. How deaths are down, but government press reports and media headlines are still telling people it is really dangerous and everyone needs to stay indoors.

Is this dishonest? Or is the government selectively reporting so that stupid people will stay home and not cause a resurgence, now that (in some states) the health community is finally getting a handle on the disease?

Does the media have an obligation to report the drop in deaths with the same fervor it reported increases in deaths? Does the government, in the interest of honesty and transparency, have an obligation to tell people prevention is working, and risk everyone stopping prevention measures?

Or should the government and media soft-pedal the positive news in an effort to keep people locked in their homes (My precious Freedom!! I only have four connected devices, three smart TVs, two freezers and one refrigerator stocked with food, and 700 rolls of toilet paper!!) so that the trend can continue downward.

I say the end—ending the CCP virus as a pandemic—justifies the potentially questionable means of lowered transparency and selective reporting.

An ethicist could debate the point—supposing he or she didn’t die of the virus.
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Old 04-14-20, 09:46 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Wear a flag jersey, wear a jersey saying "I support the troops", wear an American eagle.

Don't steal valor.

Also, I kind of think you're full of crap, most abusive drivers I've encountered aren't coming in slow enough to look at what I'm wearing
I've stated numerous times that the jersey I posted is just an example off the internet, but you are too stuck on your claims of morality to recognize that. Also, as I stated earlier, it doesn't have to say "veteran" to be effective (mine own jersey doesn't) and indeed most armed forces branded clothing do not make such a claim. To your point, the word "veteran" on the example, whether true or false, may be too small to be read from a distance anyway, so that wasn't the point. You could wear a RW&B jersey with eagles and stars or a jersey that literally says AMRY, NAYVY, or MAGA and these might have the same effect depending on where you are cycling.

Last edited by mihlbach; 04-14-20 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 04-14-20, 10:12 AM
  #105  
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Well it looks like we've gotten off track from the OP thread.
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Old 04-14-20, 10:25 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by hrdknox1 View Post
Well it looks like we've gotten off track from the OP thread.
Whats new?
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Old 04-14-20, 10:26 AM
  #107  
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I moved into a house several years ago. The previous owners had a security system installed and had stickers posted in the windows advertising this. Although the security system was discontinued when they sold and moved out they didn't take the stickers with them or try to remove them. I just left the stickers on the windows despite never ordering service from them or any other type of business. For whatever reason, I have never had anyone break into my house. To each their own I guess.
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Old 04-14-20, 10:36 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
I've stated numerous times that the jersey I posted is just an example off the internet, but you are too stuck on your claims of morality to recognize that. Also, as I stated earlier, it doesn't have to say "veteran" to be effective (mine own jersey doesn't) and indeed most armed forces branded clothing do not make such a claim. To your point, the word "veteran" on the example, whether true or false, may be too small to be read from a distance anyway, so that wasn't the point. You could wear a RW&B jersey with eagles and stars or a jersey that literally says AMRY, NAYVY, or MAGA and these might have the same effect depending on where you are cycling.

Dress up like a cop, then.
It's all fair game as long as it makes you one iota safer amirite?
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Old 04-14-20, 11:21 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Dress up like a cop, then.
It's all fair game as long as it makes you one iota safer amirite?
Dressing up like a cop could arguably make you less safe because you could be mistaken for an on-duty officer. But you can buy and wear a jersey that generically says "police" on it if thats your thing.


Last edited by mihlbach; 04-14-20 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:10 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane View Post
* It's illegal in most states.

In some states (currently 2 that I know of in the US, but soon to be 4-5 with any luck) it's legal, with some restrictions for motorcycles to lane split. More states have made it legal for motorcycles to run red lights after waiting for a period of time (because lots of road sensors don't detect motorcycles).

Also, if you actually go look on you tube, motorcyclists get yelled at (and threatened, run off the road, hit, etc) quite often by a$$hats in cars that think they are law enforcement....and this happens in places where lane splitting is legal. There's a bunch of videos of people in CA opening their car doors intentionally taking out motorcycles on the interstate.
Fair enough, I did not know that. Sounds terrible tbh. I guess I should consider myself lucky then, I have only ever been screamed at for taking the country road (80km/h speed limit, no idea what the US equivalent is) instead of the bike lane (because that is through a residential neighborhood on the side of it, it's stupid and the country road is sparsely used anyway). But the examples here sound terrible, had to google coal rolling...
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Old 04-14-20, 12:14 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Dress up like a cop, then.
It's all fair game as long as it makes you one iota safer amirite?
Yes. Now you get it. Safety comes before ideals. If not you might as well become a communist.
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Old 04-14-20, 12:24 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Yes. Now you get it. Safety comes before ideals. If not you might as well become a communist.

I guess Patrick Henry was a communist. Who knew?
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Old 04-14-20, 03:59 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
Donít assume Iím not a veteran. At any rate, there are myriad jerseys with armed forces logos that make no such claims. You could substitute with a police jersey if you like. Or confederate jersey if in the south... or whatever works in your area. It is an effective tool that not only prevents yelling. I stopped getting coal rolled, swerved at, and having beer cans and other items thrown at me when I started regularly wearing my Marines jersey (not the one posted).
Sorry to hear that you were treated like that.... Where are you riding?! Sounds like an awful place.

Iím usually the one doing the yelling and swearing on my rides.
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Old 04-14-20, 05:31 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Ross520 View Post
Sorry to hear that you were treated like that.... Where are you riding?! Sounds like an awful place.

Iím usually the one doing the yelling and swearing on my rides.
This is in a very rural part of central Illinois with high rates of alcoholism. I donít live there but ride when visiting family in the summer. There is zero law enforcement as the only police are on the opposite side of the county. So there are no consequences for bad behavior. More recently, enough local people in surrounding towns have taken up road cycling so by now, to the locals, itís a familiar activity done by familiar people. Consequently harassment by people has become less of an issue. Harassment by dogs on the other hand is still a big problem and I have to ask the locals to find safe dog free routes in the area.

Last edited by mihlbach; 04-14-20 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 04-14-20, 07:39 PM
  #115  
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You need a jersey that says " i used to be a dog."


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Old 04-14-20, 07:56 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've taken my share of abuse, thanks for asking, including close passes at 50 mph, and a near force off the road by a dump truck last Saturday, now that you mention it.

I laugh at coal rolling--it happens to me a lot, and it's a pretty lame assault.

Don't dress up like a soldier if you aren't one, this isn't a tough moral question. The reason it's stolen valor is that if people do it regularly on the fake basis, people who really have earned the respect won't get it when everyone just starts to assume it's probably a lie.
I can't for the life of me think of anyone that has earned any amount of respect, that wears a tee-shirt, hat or uniform that says they should be owed respect.... Respect is earned as is Valor, not by what OP wears....
If somebodies walking around with a uniform on acting like an asshat, then they're probably an asshat....

Last edited by 308jerry; 04-14-20 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 04-14-20, 08:21 PM
  #117  
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this has nothing to do with safety ... any person yelling from an unaffected passing vehicle is a social provocateur ... engagement is likely to escalate because that is what the yeller wants ... the yeller(s) are merely bolstering their preconceptions ... in so far as SAFETY goes biking is every man for himself > bikes routinely cut thru parking lots alleys sidewalks fields cops mainly hassle bicyclers who are impeding traffic flow > if you were ticketed for a moving violation plead your own case to a jury and you will win if you are able to sustain a logical narrative ... politically correct bicycling leads to absurdities like stopping fo a stop sign on an empty street ... get real use your head watch out for anything because NO ONE is watching out for you
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Old 04-19-20, 02:04 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by rgppgr View Post
Or why does my bottom bracket shell have a weld running the width of it? It's Italian. I can't see anything that makes me think it was repaired.
A lot of early 70's Italian bikes, even some upper level bike, used Agrati lugs which were welded on the bottom. I don't have any particular knowledge as to the practice other than to think its cheaper to make one like that than it is to fully cast and machine one. A lot of Torpado and Italvega (made by Torpado) bikes had this, from lower level to some of the top level (Super Speciale) models.

To the topic at hand, sure, I've been occasionally yelled at for passing through a stop sign, but I do it infrequently. Most of the time I am watching very carefully at all parts of the intersection, driveways, parked cars, etc.

I am more pleasantly surprised and thankful that a ton of drives I encounter (Pasadena, Long Beach, Seal Beach, most residential areas) will wave me through, especially if I'm riding with a group. Riding on Saturday or Sunday morning may have a lot to do with it as people may not be in a big hurry. I am very thankful to many drivers who will watch me as I slow chug up an inclined street and if I get there, even after they do, they stop and wave me through. Must be seeing the effort (or agony) of my riding and feel sorry for me! I appreciate that many drivers see that all I'm trying to do is get some exercise and enjoy the same day that they are.

If I have to do a left turn, I'll sprint to the lane when clear and stop on the right side of the lane allowing enough room for a car to join me. If I'm with a group, we will usually occupy the lane. When we go, we sprint to the rightmost part of the turn to allow cars to move on ahead of us, and most always, they just motor on and we ride onto the bike lane in front of us.

I ride roads that mostly have marked bike lanes and generally people leave me (us) alone. Sometimes there will be the impatient person who just can't tolerate driving behind a slower moving bike (car, motorcycle), and they honk. Mostly we just move right and wave them by.

The worst situation I recently remember was actually riding Eroica California 2018 in Paso Robles, short route, we had police escort and intersection control for the first 2 miles. About 5 miles out, a 1/2 mile long group of riders was chugging along a flat 2 lane paved road with a dedicated bike lane. Some were single file, some side by side but well within the lane. A local in a big Domestic pickup truck comes by and yells obscenities and tells us we don't belong here, etc. plus honks. The ride/event had been advertised to locals and businesses but I guess this guy didn't get the message - he probably doesn't like the tourists who visit the local wineries. It only takes one jerk or unenlightened driver to behave rudely. Most of us just ignored him and we determined not to let him disturb our ride or mood.
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Old 04-19-20, 06:22 AM
  #119  
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I like the idea of wearing a VET jersey. It might deter people from yelling from the passenger side when they see you wearing one. I've got one better. Get yourself two of the brightest rear lights in the world:

Dinotte Daytime Red Bike Light Brand New 400 Lumens
DesignShine DS-500

I've got one of each. I leave them on full power and most annoying strobe. I mount one in the rear and the other in the rear but at a slight angle towards the road. I have yet have anyone yell at me from passenger side window since I've started doing this. And if they do yell they'll get totally blinded since they will be looking at the light from like 1-3 feet. Once at a stop light a driver did ask me what kind of light it was because he said he could see me from a mile away (in day light!).
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Old 04-19-20, 06:26 AM
  #120  
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Best part of hearing loss, I don't hear anything yelled out car windows
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Old 04-19-20, 07:22 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Yes. Now you get it. Safety comes before ideals. If not you might as well become a communist.
Or a capitalist....
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Old 04-19-20, 08:04 AM
  #122  
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This is pretty funny to me .... what does wearing a jersey have to do with supporting a specific political/economic paradigm?

Nothing wrong with wearing "I used to be a soldier" or "I sued to be a dog" or whatever jersey. I have a personal issue with Me wearing a Vet jersey, but I couldn't care about the next guy. he can wear a tutu (and I have seen guys riding in tutus .... ) and I just don't care.

then ... "safety comes before ideals." yeah .... um , maybe sometimes. But in this case the safety is as imaginary as are the ideals, so it is really hard to measure.

I think what we have here is a bunch of folks who need to get away from the computer and out on the bike.
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Old 04-19-20, 07:25 PM
  #123  
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Just got back from a ride through and around my neighborhood. Very few vehicles on the road. Ran about six stop signs and one light. I feel no guilt and a lot safer........
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Old 04-20-20, 08:22 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by mud711 View Post
Just got back from a ride through and around my neighborhood. Very few vehicles on the road. Ran about six stop signs and one light. I feel no guilt and a lot safer........
I imagine it would be very quiet riding around the Carbondale and Murphysboro area. Even quieter in the smaller towns.
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Old 04-21-20, 02:27 AM
  #125  
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1973. 6:10 AM. rolled through a STOP sign in second gear @ 5 mph. red lights in the rear view.

"but I slowed down"

"sign doesn't say 'slow down'"

$13 moving violation ticket.

there went the overtime for that Saturday.

life lesson learned.
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