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No mainstream love for steel?

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No mainstream love for steel?

Old 04-26-20, 09:48 PM
  #151  
kaiserschmarrn
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
More observations: high end steel has to be thin and skinny. Aluminum is less dense and can be molded into more shapes while steel generally is circular. Thin and skinny means prone to dents. So in a way more fragile.

alu makes more sense from an industry perspective. More shapes can be marketed to people better. Corrosion resistant. Fewer dents and warranty problems.

also, the difference between alu and steel is subtle. Take the weight savings from alu, and install a sprung saddle, and it handily beats steel for comfort.
I miss the springy, responsive ride from my old Reynolds tubed Peugeot, but my new Aluminum Trek is a nice bike and is totally different and I can't really compare them directly. Even though I miss that springy feel, the Trek is a fine ride, but in different ways.

Danny
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Old 04-27-20, 01:13 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
More observations: high end steel has to be thin and skinny. Aluminum is less dense and can be molded into more shapes while steel generally is circular. Thin and skinny means prone to dents. So in a way more fragile.

alu makes more sense from an industry perspective. More shapes can be marketed to people better. Corrosion resistant. Fewer dents and warranty problems.

also, the difference between alu and steel is subtle. Take the weight savings from alu, and install a sprung saddle, and it handily beats steel for comfort.
Well I am somewhat tall and around 230 lbs and also need to have pretty high tire pressure, so for me the difference is huge between frames. For more average sized people it is probably another story.
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Old 04-27-20, 01:29 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
More observations: high end steel has to be thin and skinny. Aluminum is less dense and can be molded into more shapes while steel generally is circular. Thin and skinny means prone to dents. So in a way more fragile.

alu makes more sense from an industry perspective. More shapes can be marketed to people better. Corrosion resistant. Fewer dents and warranty problems.

also, the difference between alu and steel is subtle. Take the weight savings from alu, and install a sprung saddle, and it handily beats steel for comfort.
Yes you're right about the thin walls being a limiting factor. The super high end steels nowadays are 4x the strength of Reynolds 531, so in theory you could go to about 0.1 wall thickness and 50mm diameter but this would coke-can on you. Rule of thumb is diameter should not exceed 50x wall thickness (50/0.1 is 10x that). Agree the alu bike can be made just as comfortable but it's still going to feel different. I wonder if this partly explains the trend towards fatter tyres. 23mm tyres are pretty comfortable if your seatstays are 14mm/0.6mm wall steel.
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Old 04-27-20, 06:26 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
More observations: high end steel has to be thin and skinny. Aluminum is less dense and can be molded into more shapes while steel generally is circular. Thin and skinny means prone to dents. So in a way more fragile.

alu makes more sense from an industry perspective. More shapes can be marketed to people better. Corrosion resistant. Fewer dents and warranty problems.

also, the difference between alu and steel is subtle. Take the weight savings from alu, and install a sprung saddle, and it handily beats steel for comfort.
Baseless speculating, complete nonsense.

..another candidate for the ignore list..and..done.
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Old 04-27-20, 08:51 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by guy153 View Post
Yes you're right about the thin walls being a limiting factor. The super high end steels nowadays are 4x the strength of Reynolds 531, so in theory you could go to about 0.1 wall thickness and 50mm diameter but this would coke-can on you. Rule of thumb is diameter should not exceed 50x wall thickness (50/0.1 is 10x that). Agree the alu bike can be made just as comfortable but it's still going to feel different. I wonder if this partly explains the trend towards fatter tyres. 23mm tyres are pretty comfortable if your seatstays are 14mm/0.6mm wall steel.
Where do you get your information that todays steels are 4 times stronger than Reynolds 531?
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Old 04-27-20, 10:54 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Where do you get your information that todays steels are 4 times stronger than Reynolds 531?
From Reynolds but via my bad memory. It's actually about 2.5x stronger. UTS for 953 is quoted as 1850MPa, and 531 is about 700 or 800MPa.

My point still stands though: you could use 531 in 0.8/0.6/0.8 but you can't get 953 in 0.35/0.25/0.35. The thinnest available is 0.5/0.3/0.5.

That 0.5 wall tube has an OD of 28.6mm which is a ratio of 57.2, already more than the rule of thumb 50. This is why you can't go thinner wall and higher diameter. So basically you can't really use all of the high strength to weight ratio that 953 has.
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Old 04-27-20, 04:48 PM
  #157  
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I'll explain my love for vintage steel frames. It has little to do with the material. My reason is that there was a lengthy span of years during which the component standards were relatively stable and sane. I've got about half a dozen of those frames in the family fleet, and have been able to find spare parts for all of them, new or used. That, and horizontal dropouts, and being able to skootch a frame to fit an odd IGH, etc. They're ideal frames for projects. But nobody's going to make a modern frame today, just in case I might want another project bike, 30 years from now. That doesn't make sense.

My impression is that after that era, part standards started changing quite rapidly, like every few years. Sure, progress is great, but it means that a particular frame needs a particular set of parts. Now, a bike that's a few years old is neither fish nor fowl. The current owner has moved on to a new bike. But nobody wants the old bike because it will be a maintenance headache. I'd love a lightweight crabon frame, but forget about putting my Sturmey-Archer AW hub on it. I have no doubt that it would last a long time. Granted, I'm a freak, and new bikes aren't made for old freaks.

A minor quibble about carbon: It's not a "plastic" frame. Technically speaking, epoxy is not a thermoplastic material. Also, engineered materials have been around forever, with beneficial applications, such as concrete (cement and gravel), steel reinforced concrete, and even plywood.

And an amusing story: I once bought a Saturn station wagon, with a plastic body, and the salesman was not permitted to say the word "plastic." It was amusing how he squrimed when I said "plastic." He had been trained to call it "polymer." The specific plastic in the body was ABS, same stuff as used for telephones and things that need to be cheap but tough.
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Old 04-28-20, 04:44 PM
  #158  
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I must say that I love the sound of when you pick up a stone and hit the downtube and hear that little "tink" and I know why I love steel.
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Old 04-30-20, 01:40 PM
  #159  
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Got my Cinelli Vigorelli Road built up. Only have about a mile on it so far, but feels great. Be riding on a long ride Saturday.
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Old 04-30-20, 03:29 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by BirdsBikeBinocs View Post
Yes and I've heard that museum is incredible. Thanks for reminding me of that.
I live outside of Columbus, SW of the city and right on the Ohio to Erie Trail. I recommend getting David McCullough's Wright Brothers Biography on audiobook and riding the flat and smooth trail west 50 miles to to Xenia and then 12-15 more northwest to Dayton. After camping or hoteling in Dayton, you can visit the Air Force Museum, which is awesome and free, and lots of Wright Brother sights in Dayton. The audiobook is amazing ans a great companion for a pilgrimage to the the homeland of the genius brothers. McCullough describes the influence of cycling on the brothers, especially Orville, at length. Its a great book and a fun journey. I did this exact trip myself last year from my home...
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Old 04-30-20, 04:25 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by Jeremiesmith77 View Post
I live outside of Columbus, SW of the city and right on the Ohio to Erie Trail. I recommend getting David McCullough's Wright Brothers Biography on audiobook and riding the flat and smooth trail west 50 miles to to Xenia and then 12-15 more northwest to Dayton. After camping or hoteling in Dayton, you can visit the Air Force Museum, which is awesome and free, and lots of Wright Brother sights in Dayton. The audiobook is amazing ans a great companion for a pilgrimage to the the homeland of the genius brothers. McCullough describes the influence of cycling on the brothers, especially Orville, at length. Its a great book and a fun journey. I did this exact trip myself last year from my home...
That's the best historical book I've ever read. 2 guys and a sister. And the death of a military officer. What a mess.....
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Old 04-30-20, 05:59 PM
  #162  
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You don't have to get the very top end steel, though. They still make reynolds 531 frames and any other guage you can think of, and you could get a custom one if all else failed.
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Old 05-01-20, 01:18 AM
  #163  
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531 is still available, but it's not used much because you can't weld it. But you can get 525 and 631, or just any double-butted 4130 or 25CrMo4 cromoly (which is what 525 is anyway). A bigger difference is the geometry and tube gauges/wall thicknesses with most modern off-the-shelf steel frames being stiffer, heavier and more often having sloping top-tubes than the traditional style. They will also usually be welded rather than lugged but this doesn't affect the way the bike rides.
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Old 08-16-20, 01:58 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by slowgo View Post
Is it still necessary to treat modern steel frames, like the Cinelli Vigorelli I am building up, with frame saver for corrosion resistance?
Yes.
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Old 08-17-20, 09:28 AM
  #165  
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Exactly!!!! The big money is in the CF plastic bikes.
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Old 08-17-20, 09:44 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Exactly!!!! The big money is in the CF plastic bikes.
As well it should be.
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Old 08-19-20, 09:11 AM
  #167  
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Columbus and Reynolds made great steel bikes. I have a carbon fiber. But I still frequently ride my Univega Modo Volare which has a steel frame. Still rides like butter.
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Old 08-19-20, 09:26 AM
  #168  
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You mean all the marketing advertising and online reviewers who push what you assume is the mainstream?
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Old 08-19-20, 10:50 AM
  #169  
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I ride this GURU Sidero. It weighs in at 17 lb 10 oz w/SRAM Red 10 sp and Mavic USTs. I love this bike. OTOH I also have a CAAD 12 that I also love.
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