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Index Shifting Vs. Friction

Old 06-23-24, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by almico8
Most times I do. You don't get to read all the stuff I don't post.
Well at least your 911 anecdotes were more original than dismissing disc brakes and electronic shifting as marketing. How do you feel about wider tubeless tyres and carbon frames? Might as well go all in at this point.
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Old 06-23-24, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by almico8
Clearly you did not read anything I wrote. Or you read the white part and not the black.
Clearly I not only read, but quoted, everything you wrote.

You said it and whether or not you choose to stand by ti ... it is right there on the page ... twice.

You said there are already enough bikes in the world. YOU SAID IT. Now you realize who ridiculous it is and you know you cannot defend it ... just like the other stuff I quoted which is 100 percent your imagination,.

Own it. Or rather, since you already own it, acknowledge it. it is right there where you posted it.
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Old 06-23-24, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Well at least your 911 anecdotes were more original than dismissing disc brakes and electronic shifting as marketing. How do you feel about wider tubeless tyres and carbon frames? Might as well go all in at this point.
If he's going all in, he needs to tell us how much one can spend on a new bike without being a fool (or a dentist).
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Old 06-23-24, 10:47 AM
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Wonder how many of the pugnacious friction-shifting apologists on Bike Forums know that the fervor of their crusade traces directly back to Grant Petersen, who bought a bunch of recently obsolete friction shifters and derailleurs for pennies on the dollar back in the '90's and then had to figure out how to market the stuff.

He hit on the brilliantly simple stratagem of suggesting that preferring index shifting represented a failure of character, likening index shifters to that soul-sapping work of the devil, the automatic camera. Petersen even co-oped the innocuous "point and shoot" marketing tag used for the cameras by slyly hinting that "point and shift" gears were for the lazy and incompetent. (Sound familiar?)

I'd like to think that Petersen is sorry that his marketing gambit ended up driving a wedge between the "1980's tech rules" clique (a clique invented by him) and the rest of us, with the naysayers always ready for battle. He'd probably be horrified to realize that he's the bike world's Newt Gingrich.

Edit: Petersen actually used the cleverer phrase "point and click" to denigrate index shifting, not, as I misremembered, "point and shift."


Last edited by Trakhak; 06-23-24 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Clearly I not only read, but quoted, everything you wrote.

You said it and whether or not you choose to stand by ti ... it is right there on the page ... twice.

You said there are already enough bikes in the world. YOU SAID IT. Now you realize who ridiculous it is and you know you cannot defend it ... just like the other stuff I quoted which is 100 percent your imagination,.

Own it. Or rather, since you already own it, acknowledge it. it is right there where you posted it.
Allow me to correct myself, "Clearly you did not comprehend anything I said".

To quote ChatGPT:

As of 2023, there are approximately 1 billion bicycles in the world. This includes a wide range of bicycles, from everyday commuter bikes to high-end racing and mountain bikes.

In terms of bicycle riders, there are about 580 million people worldwide who use bicycles regularly, whether for commuting, leisure, or sport. This number reflects the popularity of cycling as a mode of transportation and recreation across various regions globally.

The large number of bicycles compared to riders suggests that many people own more than one bike, which is common among enthusiasts who may have different bikes for different purposes, such as road biking, mountain biking, and commuting.

For further details and statistics on global bicycle ownership and usage, you can refer to sources like the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) and various cycling industry reports.

So there seems to be twice as many bicycles in the world that there are people riding them. There, I defended it.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by almico8
To quote ChatGPT:
I think this thread has finally hit rock bottom.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
If he's going all in, he needs to tell us how much one can spend on a new bike without being a fool (or a dentist).
I would never buy a new bike. Too many great frames out there waiting for a refresh. However, I would never call someone a fool for buying a new bike. Unlike others here, I find resorting to name calling the "last refuge of a scoundrel".

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I think this thread has finally hit rock bottom.
​​​​​​​Ask stupid questions, get stupid answers.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:25 AM
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Pretty clear that this thread was not revived with the goal of learning anything about bikes.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:38 AM
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Bacon grease is the best bike lube...Hahahaha......
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Old 06-23-24, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Pretty clear that this thread was not revived with the goal of learning anything about bikes.
Yes, it was. I signed up on this forum a week ago and was looking for input. I was recommissioning an old bike and wondering about which shifters to use. I made my case about what I like about friction shifting and used my less than tech-y car as an example. I had no idea I was whacking a hornets nest. Lessons learned.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by drlogik
Bacon grease is the best bike lube...Hahahaha......
Bacon grease has too much rotating mass.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by drlogik
Bacon grease is the best bike lube...Hahahaha......
Do you have to put it on hot, or can you smear it on cold? Asking for a friend.

Last edited by almico8; 06-23-24 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-23-24, 11:55 AM
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And FWIW, I just bought an index-shifting bike. It's a 1988 Schwinn Aluminum Pro 1.86kg Klein mountain bike that was stripped, polished and converted to a beach cruiser with a Nexus 5-speed coaster hub and 650B wheel set. I paid $450. I wonder how much it would cost if a bike company was making it today?

Found some info on this pretty rare machine: https://myretrocycles.blogspot.com/2...minum.html?m=1



Last edited by almico8; 06-23-24 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 06-23-24, 12:54 PM
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So … chat GTP does your thinking for you? …. Makes sense now …

Questions might be … who counted those one billion bikes? How accurate are those numbers? Do those numbers include those frames ready to be reconditioned?

And how were the numbers about 580 million bicycle users calculated? Can you show any sources besides the program which makes up stuff on command?

I have seen video of kids in African cities who attach two forks to a board and use it as a bike … did you ask them if they say there are too many bikes?

If a person decides he or she want to try cycling, where would that person get a bike? Steal it? Or should someone who has no bike and has never ridden a bike, buy and build up a bare frame?

If I have a mountain bike and a road bike … and every other rider wanted to have the same ... that alone would be more than one billion bikes. So … who gets to decide who cannot have more than one bike?

In fact, I have seven bikes … and a lot of people where have a lot more. So suddenly your surfeit disappears . if it ever existed because you have Zero “evidence” just some stuff from Chat GTP.

And how many of those bikes are even rideable, and how many of them meet the needs and desires of the people looking for bikes?

Further …. Who the flaming frog fart are YOU to tell people how many bikes they can have? Who are you to decide that nobody who wants a new bike should have one?

You just got a bike You like … but to honor the people who cannot maybe you should give it back. Leave it for someone who needs it more.

Above I asked who you were …..I will tell you who you are: you are the person who has only Chat GTP to back up a statement like

Originally Posted by almico8
... there are clearly more than enough bikes in the world already.
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Old 06-23-24, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
So … chat GTP does your thinking for you? …. Makes sense now …

Questions might be … who counted those one billion bikes? How accurate are those numbers? Do those numbers include those frames ready to be reconditioned?

And how were the numbers about 580 million bicycle users calculated? Can you show any sources besides the program which makes up stuff on command?

I have seen video of kids in African cities who attach two forks to a board and use it as a bike … did you ask them if they say there are too many bikes?

If a person decides he or she want to try cycling, where would that person get a bike? Steal it? Or should someone who has no bike and has never ridden a bike, buy and build up a bare frame?

If I have a mountain bike and a road bike … and every other rider wanted to have the same ... that alone would be more than one billion bikes. So … who gets to decide who cannot have more than one bike?

In fact, I have seven bikes … and a lot of people where have a lot more. So suddenly your surfeit disappears . if it ever existed because you have Zero “evidence” just some stuff from Chat GTP.

And how many of those bikes are even rideable, and how many of them meet the needs and desires of the people looking for bikes?

Further …. Who the flaming frog fart are YOU to tell people how many bikes they can have? Who are you to decide that nobody who wants a new bike should have one?

You just got a bike You like … but to honor the people who cannot maybe you should give it back. Leave it for someone who needs it more.

Above I asked who you were …..I will tell you who you are: you are the person who has only Chat GTP to back up a statement like
that was as much effort as I’m willing to put into the subject. Clearly you care more.
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Old 06-23-24, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by almico8
that was as much effort as I’m willing to put into the subject. Clearly you care more.
When you grow up some you will realize that life is precious and being half-a$$ed is a waste of life.

I wish you exactly what you deserve, and I hope you deal with your life in the best possible way.
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Old 06-23-24, 01:50 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Wonder how many of the pugnacious friction-shifting apologists know that the fervor of their crusade traces directly back to Grant Petersen, who bought a bunch of recently obsolete friction shifters and derailleurs for pennies on the dollar back in the '90's...
So my love for the friction shifters on my '72 Torpado, '75 Motobécane, '80 Bertoni, '82 Miyata and '88 Falcon is tied to something someone else did with some other bike parts in the '90s?
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Old 06-23-24, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
So my love for the friction shifters on my '72 Torpado, '75 Motobécane, '80 Bertoni, '82 Miyata and '88 Falcon is tied to something someone else did with some other bike parts in the '90s?
Love is love. It's the people who "hate on" (I hate on that phrase) index shifting I had in mind.

(I thought I would wittily note that I was quoting Paul McCartney's Things We Said Today with "Love is love." Double-checked, and learned that I've misheard those lyrics since the album came out. Correct lyrics: ". . . Love to hear you say that love is luck . . . ")
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Old 06-23-24, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
So my love for the friction shifters on my '72 Torpado, '75 Motobécane, '80 Bertoni, '82 Miyata and '88 Falcon is tied to something someone else did with some other bike parts in the '90s?
No. There's nothing wrong with liking (or loving) older technology. I think what Trakhak was referring to is this weird attitude of superiority expressed by some cyclists that use older technology.
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Old 06-23-24, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
When you grow up some you will realize that life is precious and being half-a$$ed is a waste of life.

I wish you exactly what you deserve, and I hope you deal with your life in the best possible way.
likewise.

and I just bought a 90s Merlin Ti by Tom Kellogg with full Dura-Ace 8-speed with new tires, tubes, saddle and cables for $850. So for $1300 I have 2 pretty amazing bikes. Seems like there’s plenty of bikes around for people that are willing to look.




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Old 06-23-24, 02:23 PM
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This thread is causing a lot of friction…..maybe check the Bike Forum index and shift to another topic?

Last edited by Biker Pete; 06-23-24 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 06-23-24, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Biker Pete
This thread is causing a lot of friction…..maybe check the Bike Forum index and shift to another topic?
I just overshifted into another deason thread
crap
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Old 06-23-24, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Petersen even co-oped the innocuous "point and shoot" marketing tag used for the cameras by slyly hinting that "point and shift" gears were for the lazy and incompetent. (Sound familiar?)
What is hilarious is separate cameras, either point and shoot or digital slr, are a niche market. Nearly everyone uses their phone.

I saw a pic of Taylor Swift taking a selfie with the Prince of Wales and his kids. Meanwhile Grant was a searching out sources for Kodachrome as the world has passed him by and will soon forget he existed.

John
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Old 06-24-24, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
Since barcons of any sort suk, the question of friction/index is actually moot
I love Barcons.
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Old 06-24-24, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Wonder how many of the pugnacious friction-shifting apologists on Bike Forums know that the fervor of their crusade traces directly back to Grant Petersen, who bought a bunch of recently obsolete friction shifters and derailleurs for pennies on the dollar back in the '90's and then had to figure out how to market the stuff.

He hit on the brilliantly simple stratagem of suggesting that preferring index shifting represented a failure of character, likening index shifters to that soul-sapping work of the devil, the automatic camera. Petersen even co-oped the innocuous "point and shoot" marketing tag used for the cameras by slyly hinting that "point and shift" gears were for the lazy and incompetent. (Sound familiar?)

I'd like to think that Petersen is sorry that his marketing gambit ended up driving a wedge between the "1980's tech rules" clique (a clique invented by him) and the rest of us, with the naysayers always ready for battle. He'd probably be horrified to realize that he's the bike world's Newt Gingrich.

Edit: Petersen actually used the cleverer phrase "point and click" to denigrate index shifting, not, as I misremembered, "point and shift."
For those that haven't seen it, here is an interview with GP on PLP. He tells the story of the 1000 friction shifters he bought for $.99 each. He seems perfectly lucid, sane and well-meaning to me. He came from a time when bike/component design was simple and beautiful. He didn't like the complexity that index shifting brought to the bike world, and as he left Bridgestone, set out to create a bicycle company that aligned with his vision. It was a big risk. Going against Big Corporate always is. He believed there was a market of bike riders out there that just liked to ride a bike, like when they were a kid. They didn't need or want to race. They didn't want to wear Spandex tights and clip their feet to the pedals and do the clicking clack duck walk into the general store mid-ride. He didn't "drive a wedge", and if you take his opinion as a failure of character on your part, that's on you. He put everything on the line and gave regular people (like me) permission to not have to be part of the racy cycling crowd in order to enjoy cycling. He doesn't "denigrate" index shifting that I have even seen. He doesn't like it and is happy to tell you why. Nothing wrong with that. If there is a wedge, cyclists themselves drove it. Personally, I think Grant (and Sheldon Brown) are heroes and a gift to cycling.


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