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Riding with sore muscles

Old 10-05-21, 07:48 AM
  #26  
aclinjury
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you can continue to workout through muscle soreness.
However, if it's muscle pain then you should stop.
Sometimes it can be conflating distinguishing muscle soreness with muscle pain, especially if you're motivated to workout and ignore symptoms of pain.
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Old 10-05-21, 10:08 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Actually, no one knows what is causing post-workout pain. The lactic acid theory has been thoroughly disproven as your liver flushes that very quickly (within an hour if I recall correctly).
The damage I am talking about happens in the first few minutes---which is why you will see pros jump on a trainer and spin like mad right after a really hard stage. The lactic acid which stays in the clogged capillaries when the blood pressure lowers, is .... Acidic .... and poisons the capillary cells and any surrounding cells, which then rupture and release fluid. The newly killed cells' membranes add to the traffic in the remaining capillaries, and the fluid, which cannot escape through the clogged capillaries, add to the inflammation.

Maybe you could ask the pros why they think it is so important to do five or fifteen fast minutes on a trainer right after a hard stage .... maybe it has nothing about flushing all the waste out of the muscles and ensuring a good supply of nutrients to initiate recovery ... that's just what some well-educated racer and pro trainer told me. he could have been wrong. But it is the best information I have ... and sort of obviates nay issues about how long it takes the liver to clean the blood. The point isn't to get the lactic acid out of the blood .... the point is to reduce the concentration of lactic acid at the most damaged parts of the muscles.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Do whatever makes you feel better. No one is actually going to be able to tell you why it does or doesn't work because they still haven't figured out why we have the pain in the first place other than it's directly related to exertion. Pros jump on trainers after the rides because it makes them feel better for some reason, the "scientific" explanation is, at best, a guess.
Ummm ..... okay ......

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've been doing a 100 miles on Saturday, 50 on Sunday routine for several weeks now, and I'm pretty sore Sunday morning. I lose that soreness within the first couple miles of Sunday's ride and don't need to take it easy on that ride. I definitely feel it Monday morning, so I just go to work that day and don't ride afterwards. I'm fine by Tuesday. I do feel a need to "flush", and I end up drinking a ridiculous amount of water over the 24 hours after a century, I have no idea whether that has anything to do with recovery, but I just feel very thirsty for a while.
"Flushing" has nothing to do with hydration. The idea is to flush the muscles with fresh blood, not to replace lost fluids. Otherwise, we wouldn't do recovery rides, we'd do recovery drinking sessions .... (which a lot of amateur riders do, but usually not with water .... )

Anyway .... just to clarify my point. Whatever the science is, it is always the last, best guess, as more research will always turn up new information eventually.
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Old 10-05-21, 10:40 AM
  #28  
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Just need to ride it out. Just like lifting when your muscles are sore. You need to give ample time for recovery, however, you need to just push through the soreness.
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Old 10-05-21, 11:50 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The damage I am talking about happens in the first few minutes---which is why you will see pros jump on a trainer and spin like mad right after a really hard stage. The lactic acid which stays in the clogged capillaries when the blood pressure lowers, is .... Acidic .... and poisons the capillary cells and any surrounding cells, which then rupture and release fluid. The newly killed cells' membranes add to the traffic in the remaining capillaries, and the fluid, which cannot escape through the clogged capillaries, add to the inflammation.

Maybe you could ask the pros why they think it is so important to do five or fifteen fast minutes on a trainer right after a hard stage .... maybe it has nothing about flushing all the waste out of the muscles and ensuring a good supply of nutrients to initiate recovery ... that's just what some well-educated racer and pro trainer told me. he could have been wrong. But it is the best information I have ... and sort of obviates nay issues about how long it takes the liver to clean the blood. The point isn't to get the lactic acid out of the blood .... the point is to reduce the concentration of lactic acid at the most damaged parts of the muscles.

Ummm ..... okay ......

"Flushing" has nothing to do with hydration. The idea is to flush the muscles with fresh blood, not to replace lost fluids. Otherwise, we wouldn't do recovery rides, we'd do recovery drinking sessions .... (which a lot of amateur riders do, but usually not with water .... )

Anyway .... just to clarify my point. Whatever the science is, it is always the last, best guess, as more research will always turn up new information eventually.

Yes, and all of the new information I'm aware of says this view of lactic acid is incorrect, that it has next to nothing to do with DOMS, and is actually a fuel used by the muscles.

Knock yourself out with making head or tail of this mixed bag, but there's no evidence that cool-downs do anything to prevent damage to muscle tissue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5999142/

Beg to differ on the "flushing". If you're familiar with rhabdo, you will know that the load on the kidneys is heightened by processing protein breakdown byproducts. Unlike lactate, which really breaks down very quickly, these byproducts do cumulate, possibly to dangerous levels. I had some annoying symptoms that I don't care to describe here until I took up this drink a lot of water strategy. I'll just say the phrase "felt like needles" was a part of my vocabulary for a few weeks. Suffice it to say that diluting my urine post long ride has made life a bit less uncomfortable for me. I have no idea whether this has impact on post workout muscle pain. Probably not, but it is a part of my post big workout routine.

All due respect to pros, but they may be experts in what works for them and not in why it works. And maybe neither. They just might be doing something out of faith that it works.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:05 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Yes, and all of the new information I'm aware of says this view of lactic acid is incorrect, that it has next to nothing to do with DOMS, and is actually a fuel used by the muscles.

Knock yourself out with making head or tail of this mixed bag, but there's no evidence that cool-downs do anything to prevent damage to muscle tissue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5999142/

Beg to differ on the "flushing". If you're familiar with rhabdo, you will know that the load on the kidneys is heightened by processing protein breakdown byproducts. Unlike lactate, which really breaks down very quickly, these byproducts do cumulate, possibly to dangerous levels. I had some annoying symptoms that I don't care to describe here until I took up this drink a lot of water strategy. I'll just say the phrase "felt like needles" was a part of my vocabulary for a few weeks. Suffice it to say that diluting my urine post long ride has made life a bit less uncomfortable for me. I have no idea whether this has impact on post workout muscle pain. Probably not, but it is a part of my post big workout routine.

All due respect to pros, but they may be experts in what works for them and not in why it works. And maybe neither. They just might be doing something out of faith that it works.
From "BritishCycling.org" advice for a hard training session or race:-

"A progressive cool-down will help remove metabolic waste products from your muscles. If you donít cool-down, these metabolites will Ďsití there and potentially inhibit recovery. A cool-down will also minimise the likelihood of you feeling dizzy, nauseous or fainting post exercise. It will also allow your blood to redistribute around the body, preventing blood pooled in your lower extremities."

Can't say I understand what "metabolites" are, but all the professional training programs I've followed in recent years talk the same language. Sometimes you just have to trust other people's day jobs. When you see pro cyclists at World Tour level cooling down on turbo trainers after a 200 km stage you know they aren't doing it just for the hell of it. Every structured workout I've done has a defined cool down period at the end. Usually 5-10 mins of relatively high cadence spinning to get rid of those pesky metabolites!
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Old 10-05-21, 02:34 PM
  #31  
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"Metabolites:" are the chemicals created by metabolism .... what the stuff breaks down into.

What's left, chemically, after your muscles burn fuel (combine sugar with oxygen) to create energy .... i.e. waste, including lactic acid.

(https://healthjade.com/how-your-body-metabolizes-sugar/)
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Old 10-05-21, 02:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
From "BritishCycling.org" advice for a hard training session or race:-

"A progressive cool-down will help remove metabolic waste products from your muscles. If you donít cool-down, these metabolites will Ďsití there and potentially inhibit recovery. A cool-down will also minimise the likelihood of you feeling dizzy, nauseous or fainting post exercise. It will also allow your blood to redistribute around the body, preventing blood pooled in your lower extremities."

Can't say I understand what "metabolites" are, but all the professional training programs I've followed in recent years talk the same language. Sometimes you just have to trust other people's day jobs. When you see pro cyclists at World Tour level cooling down on turbo trainers after a 200 km stage you know they aren't doing it just for the hell of it. Every structured workout I've done has a defined cool down period at the end. Usually 5-10 mins of relatively high cadence spinning to get rid of those pesky metabolites!

Check out the link in the post you were replying to. Basically a survey of the scientific literature that pretty much debunks most of the claims you just quoted.

And no, I don't trust other people's day jobs. Trainers are well-known to claim certainty of their methods when none exists. It's basically part of the job description because the one thing any program will definitely need is the active, somewhat enthusiastic participation by the trainee. If the trainer seems at all hesitant about the effectiveness of any part of the program, there's the very real possibility of losing the faith of their audience.

So I think the pro cyclists are doing it it because their trainers say it's good, they've grown accustomed to it, and we'll probably never know whether they would be better off or worse off or none of the above if they hadn't done it.

I put cool-down cycles in the same category as I do warm-up stretching, something I did because I was told I had to, and when I stopped, nothing bad happened. Unlike stretching, the cool down doesn't hurt, but I still don't see the logic in it. Strikes me that I'm getting whatever effect I'm supposed to if I just walk around for a few minutes at the end of the workout.

BTW, did you notice how vague and probabilistic those claims actually are--what metabolites? Sit where? What the hell does "potentially inhibit recovery" mean? It minimizes the likelihood of a bunch of stuff that rarely happens? Who faints after a workout? And the best way to prevent the pooling of blood in your extremities is to lay down with your legs elevated, but if that's happening to the extent that it's noticeable, you better get checked for heart failure because that's a pretty ominous symptom.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:37 PM
  #33  
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By the way, I am Not against drinking a lot of fluids after exercise, for exactly the reasons livedarklions suggests. However, terms can become confused if not rigidly defined. I was speaking of flushing muscles with blood (the "cool-down" ride or trainer time) as opposed to flushing the body with water. I was not senselessly quibbling, just making sure everyone was on the same age terminologically.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:38 PM
  #34  
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Sometimes Livedarklions is filled with insightful insights.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:39 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
"Metabolites:" are the chemicals created by metabolism .... what the stuff breaks down into.

What's left, chemically, after your muscles burn fuel (combine sugar with oxygen) to create energy .... i.e. waste, including lactic acid.

(https://healthjade.com/how-your-body-metabolizes-sugar/)

And the literature survey I linked to says there's absolutely no proof that cool-downs reduce lactate in the muscles. It might reduce it in the bloodstream slightly, but that's not really an issue unless your liver is on the blink.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:54 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Check out the link in the post you were replying to. Basically a survey of the scientific literature that pretty much debunks most of the claims you just quoted.

And no, I don't trust other people's day jobs. Trainers are well-known to claim certainty of their methods when none exists. It's basically part of the job description because the one thing any program will definitely need is the active, somewhat enthusiastic participation by the trainee. If the trainer seems at all hesitant about the effectiveness of any part of the program, there's the very real possibility of losing the faith of their audience.

So I think the pro cyclists are doing it it because their trainers say it's good, they've grown accustomed to it, and we'll probably never know whether they would be better off or worse off or none of the above if they hadn't done it.

I put cool-down cycles in the same category as I do warm-up stretching, something I did because I was told I had to, and when I stopped, nothing bad happened. Unlike stretching, the cool down doesn't hurt, but I still don't see the logic in it. Strikes me that I'm getting whatever effect I'm supposed to if I just walk around for a few minutes at the end of the workout.

BTW, did you notice how vague and probabilistic those claims actually are--what metabolites? Sit where? What the hell does "potentially inhibit recovery" mean? It minimizes the likelihood of a bunch of stuff that rarely happens? Who faints after a workout? And the best way to prevent the pooling of blood in your extremities is to lay down with your legs elevated, but if that's happening to the extent that it's noticeable, you better get checked for heart failure because that's a pretty ominous symptom.
Yeah I gave it a very brief look over. Will go back to it when I have more time. I know what you are saying, but whenever an article "debunks" not just one other professional view, but pretty much ALL other professional views, then you have to wonder who is right or wrong? I do agree that some training methods are dubious by scientific standards and I don't personally place a huge emphasis on the potential benefits of a cool-down. But I have noticed that if I stop dead at the end of a very hard training session it feels absolutely horrific! The sudden change is just too much of a shock. However at the end of a lower intensity ride it doesn't much matter.
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Old 10-05-21, 02:56 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Yeah I gave it a very brief look over. Will go back to it when I have more time. I know what you are saying, but whenever an article "debunks" not just one other professional view, but pretty much ALL other professional views, then you have to wonder who is right or wrong? I do agree that some training methods are dubious by scientific standards and I don't personally place a huge emphasis on the potential benefits of a cool-down. But I have noticed that if I stop dead at the end of a very hard training session it feels absolutely horrific! The sudden change is just too much of a shock. However at the end of a lower intensity ride it doesn't much matter.

Well, I'm not whipping myself with chains like you do on your training sessions, so I can't really say how I'd react to a complete abrupt cessation.

I still can't get past Sufferfest.
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Old 10-05-21, 03:02 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
...Wear compression tights overnight after hard rides...
I have done allot of research on this and surprisingly the mechanism of action contradicts it helping. But the proof is in the pudding. I do it allot, and so do many others. It also helps with resting cramps. I am talking about those charlie horse type intractable cramps you can get in the large muscles of your legs when sleeping. Surprisingly even light compression helps, but who knows exactly why?

Also age has allot to do with it. It's just about recovery time I guess...
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Old 10-05-21, 04:23 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
I have done allot of research on this and surprisingly the mechanism of action contradicts it helping. But the proof is in the pudding. I do it allot, and so do many others. It also helps with resting cramps. I am talking about those charlie horse type intractable cramps you can get in the large muscles of your legs when sleeping. Surprisingly even light compression helps, but who knows exactly why?

Also age has allot to do with it. It's just about recovery time I guess...
tablespoon of mustard cures my charlies
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Old 10-05-21, 04:43 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
Zwift.
I always see lots of Canadians all winter long there.
Zwift is not real cycling...I live up in Canada and you're not going to find me performing fake rides on some computer screen. I prefer to ride outdoors all winter long.
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Old 10-05-21, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeesnob View Post
tablespoon of mustard cures my charlies
Makes since. Mustard is high in metabolic Magnesium. And its not really the amount of Magnesium but rather the fact it is already in metabolic form and readily absorbed. Magnesium helps with those Calcium and Potassium channels in muscular tissue contraction.
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Old 10-05-21, 06:51 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Zwift is not real cycling...I live up in Canada and you're not going to find me performing fake rides on some computer screen. I prefer to ride outdoors all winter long.
You do youÖ.

Iíll be comfy doing fake riding and fake racing all winter long inside rather have my nostrils frozen solid with snot or be covered with dirty road slush from passing trucks. Thank you very much.
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Old 10-05-21, 07:13 PM
  #43  
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riding is riding

out or in
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Old 10-05-21, 09:33 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Zwift is not real cycling...I live up in Canada and you're not going to find me performing fake rides on some computer screen. I prefer to ride outdoors all winter long.
Technically, yes, itís a different system. You are not doing work to move your body and the bike forward against external forces. You are dissipating your effort in the machine in some fashion and no work is done on you or the bike.

I have the same preference, but thatís all it is. Iíd rather ride outdoors. On the few occasions where that wonít work out, Iíd rather use my elliptical, which is kinda like riding out of the saddle all the time, or some other indoor workout where Iím not on a stationary bike.

But itís clear that Zwift can keep lots of people engaged and in good cycling shape through the winter, and thatís gotta be a good thing.

Otto
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Old 10-06-21, 02:58 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Zwift is not real cycling...I live up in Canada and you're not going to find me performing fake rides on some computer screen. I prefer to ride outdoors all winter long.
Fake rides, real fitness.
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Old 10-06-21, 04:54 AM
  #46  
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the pros are on the trainer and hydrating to boost plasma levels to pass the Hct test

i rarely get doms but i also rarely do the type of workout that causes it and i don't think doms has anything to do with lactate or H+....
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Old 10-06-21, 07:36 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Fake rides, real fitness.
Thatís clever. You should suggest that to Zwift!

Otto
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Old 10-06-21, 10:20 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
Makes since. Mustard is high in metabolic Magnesium. And its not really the amount of Magnesium but rather the fact it is already in metabolic form and readily absorbed. Magnesium helps with those Calcium and Potassium channels in muscular tissue contraction.

For the zillionth time, there is no reason to believe that electrolytes have anything to do with workout-related cramping. It's been studied, and there appears to be no relationship whatsoever. You can get cramping from extreme electrolyte deprivation, but it's very rare and likely going to be systemic, not a single muscle charley horse kind of thing.

I've seen some discussion of how mustard is supposed to work, and it has to do with nervous system interactions, not anything to do with magnesium.
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Old 10-06-21, 01:38 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
...You can get cramping from extreme electrolyte deprivation, but it's very rare and likely going to be systemic...
I certainly agree. Maybe its just our way of quantifying what is electrolyte deprivation. If we draw blood and check electrolytes it will be rare that we find anything abnormal at all. I personally tested electrolyte levels in runners after a US Army marathon in the 80's. They were obviously dehydrated, exhausted, and completely run down yet none technically had low electrolyte levels. Half of them had blood in their urine with limited urine output. In other words ya gotta be really messed up to have a laboratory confirmed electrolyte disorder.

We certainly need more research on cramps resting type or otherwise. Thank goodness the majority of people never have this problem chronically...
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
I certainly agree. Maybe its just our way of quantifying what is electrolyte deprivation. If we draw blood and check electrolytes it will be rare that we find anything abnormal at all. I personally tested electrolyte levels in runners after a US Army marathon in the 80's. They were obviously dehydrated, exhausted, and completely run down yet none technically had low electrolyte levels. Half of them had blood in their urine with limited urine output. In other words ya gotta be really messed up to have a laboratory confirmed electrolyte disorder.

We certainly need more research on cramps resting type or otherwise. Thank goodness the majority of people never have this problem chronically...

That's the big problem with trying to nail down causation, they really can't observe them as they spontaneously occur because they're too infrequent to catch under laboratory conditions.

I had a foot cramp a couple weeks ago. I didn't even know that was a thing. Lasted about 10 seconds and went away as soon as I put weight on it. Never before, none since, really weird.
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