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Tubeless tires work with Co2

Old 07-13-20, 07:46 PM
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Tubeless tires work with Co2

I'm going to buy tubeless tire. I have a question. Does the CO2 affect sealant?
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Old 07-13-20, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Amber1988 View Post
I'm going to buy tubeless tire. I have a question. Does the CO2 affect sealant?
It depends on the sealant. Stanís, for example, says to refresh when you get home if you use it.
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Old 07-13-20, 08:29 PM
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CO2 slowly dissolves through the tire rubber. I don't think any sealant is enough to protect it.

However, I don't think CO2 does anything to inhibit the sealant from sealing up a hole. Some people use CO2 to help seat the tire when they are setting it up.
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Old 07-13-20, 08:38 PM
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If you've had a puncture large enough to need to put pressure back in the tire, you're going to have to add sealant anyway. You shouldn't be using CO2 in tires in place of air anyway. Smaller molecules, it leaks out faster.

I don't care a pump on any of my bikes, for roadside use, it's CO2 only.
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Old 07-13-20, 08:46 PM
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now is it the CO2 that dissolves the tire???? or some other propellant ingredients?
because if co2 dissolve tire tubber, than I expect co2 to dissolve outside of the tire too
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Old 07-13-20, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
now is it the CO2 that dissolves the tire???? or some other propellant ingredients?
because if co2 dissolve tire tubber, than I expect co2 to dissolve outside of the tire too
CO2 does not dissolve the tire. It dissolves into the tire and then leaves the tire into the outside, lower pressure atmosphere. The tire is more permeable to CO2 than it is to N2 and O2.

CO2 is a larger molecule than N2 or O2, so the previously-posted explanation for why it leaks out isn't accurate.
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Old 07-13-20, 09:07 PM
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Some old answers from Zinn's column

https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...ant-questions/

Here are some replies from sealant makers.― Lennard

From Effetto Mariposa:
The expansion of a gas is an endothermic reaction (brutally said, it “sucks” heat) and the magnitude of the temperature drop is related to the initial gas pressure; because of its higher cartridge pressure, CO2 will “freeze” a lot more... The reason why latex sealants solidify when using CO2 cartridges is a physical one; it’s the big thermal shock, which often initiates the polymerization of the sealant. To avoid it, it’s normally sufficient to put the valve at 12-o’clock prior to inflation and let the sealant flow down to the 6-o’clock area, so that it won’t be directly hit by the cold gas. Also, reducing the inflation speed (most CO2 adapters allow it these days) will prevent dropping the temperature too much, good for the sealant … and good for your hands, if you’re not wearing gloves.— Alberto De Gioannini, Founder, Effetto Mariposa Sagl”

From Stan’s:
“...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.— Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stan’s NOTUBES”
(edited for relevance, there was a lot here too about fix-a-flat cartridges that use propane)
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Old 07-13-20, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Some old answers from Zinn's column


(edited for relevance, there was a lot here too about fix-a-flat cartridges that use propane)

From Stanís:
ď...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.ó Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stanís NOTUBESĒ
Carbon dioxide is nearly inert in most all applications. I suspect that there is a dynamic that results from the combined effects of the CO2 solubility in the rubber and the solubility of the glycol used for the sealant in the rubber. The CO2 is fairly rapidly moved through the rubber and likely takes the glycol through with it. An reduction in the sealant solvent would be more likely to cause polymerization of the latex than thermal shock as well.
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Old 07-13-20, 10:24 PM
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If injecting CO2 into a tubeless tire freezes the sealant, it will no longer work properly.
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Old 07-13-20, 10:30 PM
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Stan's shows a guy using a cartridge in their Dart video from last year and that's what made me look up what they actually say in their bumf... I had presumed it was just a non-starter. I've also noticed that Orange Seal very carefully says nothing on the topic. Not in their infogram "manual" and not on their FAQ page. You might think it was frequently enough asked.

I carry a little pump and a little bottle of sealant, fwiw. I have levers and a tube too. All of the failures I could find to read about before trying tubeless were people who had just forgotten to keep it fresh, or damage significant enough it would require a patch, so that seemed like a realistic kit. They are all getting neglected down at the bottom of the frame bag. Usually you can tell it's getting dry because the tire starts losing air, and you deal with it at home before it's a problem on the road or trail.
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Old 07-13-20, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Carbon dioxide is nearly inert in most all applications.
I think the sealant has water in it, so carbonic acid might be catalyzing the polymerization (if indeed that happens -- I thought it didn't).
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Old 07-14-20, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Some people use CO2 to help seat the tire when they are setting it up.
I've done this. But, to be on the safe side, I do it with the tire dry to seat the tire beads. Then I release all of the CO2 and unscrew the valve core (keeping tire beads seated) and inject sealant through the valve.
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Old 07-14-20, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I think the sealant has water in it, so carbonic acid might be catalyzing the polymerization (if indeed that happens -- I thought it didn't).
If that were the case, the sealant manufacturers would say to avoid the use of carbon dioxide. The quote says it will get you out of the woods but they donít say to avoid using it.

I canít find anything that says that the polymerization is an acidic process nor that it is catalyzed by acid. I really doubt that the problem is chemical. Itís physical...a dissolution problem...caused by a bit of synergism between the CO2 and the propylene glycol. Both dissolve through the rubber but put them together and the process is likely speeded up due to CO2ís known properties with rubber.

In the rest of the quote above, Stanís does suggest using butane for seating the tire. Butane doesnít have the rubber solubility problems that CO2 does.
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Old 07-14-20, 09:17 AM
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interesting, From a link to a chemistry site


The permeability of a gas through rubber depends mainly on its diffusivity and solubility in rubber.

CO2 has a significantly higher solubility in rubber than O2 and N2, whereas the diffusion coefficients differ not that much.

The result is that carbon dioxide passes ordinary rubber about 5 times faster than oxygen and about 15 times faster than nitrogen [1, 2]
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Old 07-14-20, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
interesting, From a link to a chemistry site
Yup. Well known, fairly widely accepted, and very true.
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Old 07-14-20, 01:03 PM
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Latex coagulates naturally. It's a defense mechanism of flowering plants against insects. The curdled result can be further refined for solid rubber products. As a liquid product it has a little ammonia mixed in to prevent this, and it curdles when the ammonia evaporates out. That's why the home brew recipes contain a tablespoon or something of ammonia.

It's fascinating stuff...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
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Old 07-15-20, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Latex coagulates naturally. It's a defense mechanism of flowering plants against insects. The curdled result can be further refined for solid rubber products. As a liquid product it has a little ammonia mixed in to prevent this, and it curdles when the ammonia evaporates out. That's why the home brew recipes contain a tablespoon or something of ammonia.

It's fascinating stuff...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
I don’t think there is ammonia in Stan’s sealant. It doesn’t smell like it nor is it listed on the MSDS. If ammonia were used, it could cause the precipitation of latex because the CO2 would react with the ammonia to form ammonium carbonate but that would suggest avoiding using CO2 entirely. If you are making home brew with ammonia, I’d avoid using CO2 entirely.
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Old 07-15-20, 09:30 AM
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i've heard it's best to rotate the valve to it's highest point before using co2, so the majority of the sealant is at the other side of the tire, and less likely to be affected.
seems logical...
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Old 07-15-20, 02:29 PM
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@cyccommute check this out. Several grades. The homebrewers are likely using ammonia because the alternative is not under their sinks

https://holdenslatex.com/content/sds...atex%20SDS.pdf

Latex
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