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I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept

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I find it amazing what advertising can condition people to accept

Old 08-19-20, 02:51 PM
  #51  
Maelochs
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We are going to need some stupider and more provocative digressions if this thread is ever going to reach ten pages.
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Old 08-19-20, 02:52 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I you read any of the famous cycling books from the 80s and before, they call any bike frame butt welded low class junk. But in the nearly 40 years since then advertising has conditioned cyclist to accept butt welded frames instead of beautiful lugged and low temp brazed frames. The simple reason for that is that now computers run robot welding machines, and frame mfg can make more money that way. Robots can churn out butt welded frames 24 hours a day.
There's more than that to account for it. Both TIG welding (whether or not automated/robotic) and metallurgy have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. The manufacturing methods of modern welded frames were simply not possible in the 1980s and earlier.

N.B. FWIW, all my bikes are handmade, lugged or fillet brazed because that's what I like, not because they're intrinsically better than modern production bikes.
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Old 08-19-20, 03:09 PM
  #53  
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The '80s? Forty short years ago? Try 80 Millennia ago. That is when things were real.

Yeah, it takes a long time to chip a bike out of flint but that bike will be hard as rock. All these new-fangled materials ... .... flint has served humanity well for hundreds of thousands of years. Can steel make that claim?
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Old 08-19-20, 03:36 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
Don't worry about collecting your social security, Mark. I'm collecting it for you.
Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Jokes on you, YOUR tax dollars have been paying for my NEET lifestyle since the Clinton administration!
Glad to know someone is collecting.
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Old 08-19-20, 03:44 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Jokes on you, YOUR tax dollars have been paying for my NEET lifestyle since the Clinton administration!
You could at least be grateful, ya little pisher.
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Old 08-19-20, 03:59 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I dont disagree that they can be applicable. They are overused at this point. The saturation point was exceeded long ago and I chuckle at those who use both too liberally now. At this point its gone meta, actually- laughing at someone who references something that is overused in their attempt to make fun of someone else for how they are thinking.
Passe, but I guess these will be around until the collective finds new ways to describe groups of people.

Ooh, whats a fun name for someone who uses overdone pop culture meme phrases?
'Idiot' leaps immediately to mind. 'Bore' is another.

Perfect example: the individual trolling this thread with o/t interpolations of his (gender presumed) rather jejeune socio-political observations.
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Old 08-19-20, 04:26 PM
  #57  
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And there's all those places, Links, you give up on going , because you leave your add blocker on..
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Old 08-19-20, 04:43 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
We are going to need some stupider and more provocative digressions if this thread is ever going to reach ten pages.
Amazingly enough, this thread has made even me feel like less of an angry, argumentative pedant.
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Old 08-19-20, 04:57 PM
  #59  
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About the only good thing to come out if my experience living in Texas was the phrase "all y'all".

If I just say "y'all need to go ride your bikes", each of you can look around and say to yourself "he's not talking to ME, he's talking to them."

But when I say "all y'all need to go ride your bikes", there's no escape the meaning. All y'all is inclusive, and in this case, called for.
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Old 08-19-20, 05:00 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Thomas15 View Post
I'm not an expert or even a semi-expert but "butt welded" implies high temp arc welding with low quality steel.
I can see you're not a boilermaker or pipefitter welding to ASME high pressure codes. In those trades extremely high quality butt welds are made on various steel alloys, often with a heli arc root and stick out. A good weld is as strong as the base. Welded bike frames are aces with me.
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Old 08-19-20, 05:03 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
Have you ever seen the workmanship that goes into a Seven bicycle?

The welds are a work of art.

Not works of art but a job of work. Better than art. And I'm more impressed with the fit than the welds.
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Old 08-19-20, 05:21 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by boilermaker1 View Post
Not works of art but a job of work. Better than art. And I'm more impressed with the fit than the welds.
I was at a LBS and saw one hanging on the wall. I asked if I could take it down to get a closer look. The sales person asked if I wanted to take it for a ride... it was his bike. I did and rode it around a rather large parking lot for 10 minutes. When I returned he said "why back so soon". So I took it for a 10 mile ride, it's an awesome bike. But I already have an expensive bike and didn't need another.
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Old 08-19-20, 06:02 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Amazingly enough, this thread has made even me feel like less of an angry, argumentative pedant.
Don't stress. I am more than able to take up the slack for you.
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Old 08-19-20, 06:08 PM
  #64  
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[QUOTE=JohnDThompson;21649921]There's more than that to account for it. Both TIG welding (whether or not automated/robotic) and metallurgy have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. The manufacturing methods of modern welded frames were simply not possible in the 1980s and earlier.

N.B. FWIW, all my bikes are handmade, lugged or fillet brazed because that's what I like, not because they're intrinsically better than modern production bikes.[/QUOTE]
Hate to feed the thread starter but the comment about your preferences in bike materials is the most rational statement these forums have seen for a while.
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Old 08-19-20, 06:12 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Some people don't adjust well to changing technology, especially when their favorite technology gets left behind.
Hes not been the same since the ice man stopped making rounds and he was forced buy a Coolerator.
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Old 08-19-20, 06:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
Jokes on you, YOUR tax dollars have been paying for my NEET lifestyle since the Clinton administration!
Neet lifestyle? As in the depilatory?
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Old 08-19-20, 06:20 PM
  #67  
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Thank god for this thread. Im on day one of a three day tour and my book is boring.


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Old 08-19-20, 06:28 PM
  #68  
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I hate to be a pedant, but 'butt welding' means joining two pieces of metal end-to-end.


So for example- a welded rim can be said to be butt-welded. The frame, on the other hand, is not butt welded. It's closer to a T-joint or corner joint.

And it's not true that lugless frames were looked down on. This was the top of the line Miyata in 1982:

All lugless, with aero shaped steel tubing.
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Old 08-19-20, 07:26 PM
  #69  
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And it's not true that lugless frames were looked down on. This was the top of the line Miyata in 1982:

All lugless, with aero shaped steel tubing.[/QUOTE]

I think that's fillet brazing, which - to me eyes - is prettier than lugs.

But I'm more of a 'form over function' person. My oldest tig-welded frame is 17+ yrs and 40k+ miles, and still going strong. No problem with that.
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Old 08-19-20, 08:26 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Some people don't adjust well to changing technology, especially when their favorite technology gets left behind.
I think one has to examine the motive behind the change. For instance, when the safety razor was offered as an alternative to the straight razor, it wasn't a bad idea. Far less likely to accidentally have your neck sliced open when your 90lb dog enthusiastically jumps on you because you forgot to lock the bathroom door. Then they had the 2-blade razors and 3-blade razors, like the Mach 3. Still a pretty good idea...closer shave, less passes. And then they added a 4th blade...and eventually a 5th blade. They may have 6 or 7 blades on razor heads now for all I know. And I bring this up because I see the same thing happening with bicycle drive trains.

Gears were a great idea. 7...8...even 9 cogs in the back. Sure. Then 10, then 11, then 12...maybe they have 20 in the rear now? I don't look at new bikes too often. But at some point, **** gets ridiculous and offers little practical benefit.
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Old 08-19-20, 08:37 PM
  #71  
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Somehow you guys missed disc brakes, tubeless, and thru axles. You're slipping
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Old 08-19-20, 08:51 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by boilermaker1 View Post
I can see you're not a boilermaker or pipefitter welding to ASME high pressure codes. In those trades extremely high quality butt welds are made on various steel alloys, often with a heli arc root and stick out. A good weld is as strong as the base. Welded bike frames are aces with me.
We are not talking about boilers or industrial applications and while it is true I don't weld every day I do weld as a hobby and I'm sales Mgr for a company that supplies high quality material for military /aerospace and I know something about AS9102 .and ISO standards. I'm not saying welding sucks I'm saying that back in the 60s and 70s the golden age of steel bicycles quality frames had lugs and the tubes were low temp brazed not arc welded. I also have no problem with modern AL frames that are welded. If you know so much then you should know that a 1960s low quality steel frame that was arc welded was not strong because the low end bicycle industry didn't know or care about modern ASME standards so I don't know this why you are coming after me. My son welds fairly thin sheet metals all day long which would be difficult to do with high current arc welding 50 years ago for low cost bicycle industry and still have the steel maintain it's strength and be lighter than a Sherman Tank.
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Old 08-19-20, 09:56 PM
  #73  
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Lugs and TRIPLE BUTTED for the win!

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Old 08-20-20, 10:12 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
And one more thing: you kids get off of my lawn!
Does the truth hurt?
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Old 08-20-20, 10:14 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Some people don't adjust well to changing technology, especially when their favorite technology gets left behind.
But you can drink a beer out of a beautiful hand crafted mug, or a plastic cup.
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