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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

Old 09-19-20, 08:07 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Never heard of the book before reading this thread, so I downloaded a copy and read it. For those that haven't read it, it reads like a collection of troll thread topics. Let's just say I'm glad I didn't pay anything for the book.
Are ya sure you didn't read an Eben Weiss book by mistake?
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Old 09-19-20, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
There's still plenty of carpet fiber racing bikes . . .
Typo or not, that right there is funny.
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Old 09-19-20, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Smugness


"Likes" from Fellow Smugsters
Actually..not at all. Speaking for myself..it's to popularize the notion that an "Ignore" feature exists (many may not be aware of it, I wasn't for quite a while) and that liberal use of it can improve one's experience here on BF. BF is generally open to all. After one reaches their 6th decade(or adulthood at any age)..some have less patience to suffer fools. There's quite a bit of young and older-immature drama here. Many start-drop bomb threads just to watch the mess that develops...and it invariably develops at a predictable rate. Just as often they start a thread, drop a bomb, and never return to the thread while the folks that take the bait continue to chew on each other.

I find it useful to bypass the nonsense so trolls and drama folks get filtered. Call it anything you like..
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Old 09-19-20, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
Typo or not, that right there is funny.
I recall an article in a magazine before the webs that published a bunch of spoof letters to bike companies' CEOs. One was from a purported guy who worked in a dumpster who was so excited that Cannondale was making bikes out of carpet fiber, and that he could provide C with all the carpet fiber they needed due to his job at the dump. The response was not that funny, Montgomery basically said that they use "carbon fiber" and then went on a marketing spiel and tried to sell him a bike.
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Old 09-19-20, 09:01 AM
  #30  
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I have a Rivendell Sam Hillborne. I like it a lot. I also have a bunch of other bikes that I like just as much. Sometimes I wear cycling kit and go on long rides. Sometimes I just wear shorts and flip-flops and ride a few miles to get some lunch. If I didn't have a car, and just had one bike that I used for everything, it would probably be the Rivendell. I think that's what Grant's talking about, which is a lifestyle that doesn't work for most people, and not how most people use their bikes.
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Old 09-19-20, 09:03 AM
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We donít all cycle for the same reason Iím in the Grant camp but thereís nothing wrong with tying to turn every ride into a Rapha commercial
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Old 09-19-20, 09:13 AM
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I have been a fan of Rivendell bikes since I found them. I don't have one of his frames yet, but several of my bikes have parts from his catalog on them. What I enjoy about cycling is the ride, not going for STRAVA segments. My job has given me a general hatred of technology that has me limiting its interference in my non work life as much as possible. Nobody wants to see me in cycling clothes, so I won't subject them to that. I have found normal looking clothes that work just fine on the bikes.
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Old 09-19-20, 09:32 AM
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Back in the '90s, I was an avid Rivendell follower! I used to pore over the catalog if for nothing else than the hilarious product descriptions. I did think that many of their bikes had an "old timey" look to them but I had an appreciation for the construction materials and methods. At the time, the bikes and many items in the catalog were too pricey for me but I did purchase many cycling related (and some not so) items from Rivendell that weren't readily available nearly anywhere else.
RE: GP's ideas on cycling clothing, I clearly "cherry picked" some of the concepts and totally disagreed with others. To me, padded cycling shorts (either the mountain biker or road racer type) are essential for enjoyable riding. Cycling shoes (for any of the cycling modes) with clipless cleats, are a must have. I have found that long sleeved wool jerseys are very beneficial as the temps start to fall. I also found long sleeved seersucker button down "dress" shirts to make for comfortable riding. Many will say "Fred-like" I'm sure 🙂.
For some reason, I kinda fell out of the habit of reading Rivendell articles. Maybe other aspect of life just got in the way. This thread however, may be the "shove" I've needed to get back into the groove. Even tho many say that the Rivendell bikes are bargains, I still think their prices exceed my "bike budget". Looking is free tho!
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Old 09-19-20, 12:24 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Yep Grant Peterson designed some of the XO series bikes to be "fire" road bikes. They have road geometry and 26 inch wheels with room for a fat tire. Back in the 90s, if you wanted a fat tire road bike, 26 inch was the way to go. This is my "modernized" 1993 Bridgestone XO 2 with brifters and 3 x 8 gearing.

That is a beautiful bike.
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Old 09-19-20, 12:45 PM
  #35  
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Interesting to look at the history of bicycle design and how it effects peoples view of them.

Pre war era bicycles had a definite split between utility (Riv Aesthetic) and racing design. Most people identified with utility design.

Post war there was a marrage of utility and race design. Ride to work during the week, race or ramble on the weekend. Raleigh Clubman design and marketing as an example.

Bike boom saw a split again between utility and 10 speed race like orientation.

Lance Armstrong, popularity of TdF etc... everything has gone race design with the new split becoming between road design (race) and off road design (mtb). Utility for the road was basically dropped.

Oddly though, most of the population do not really need, or can maximize, race design. People these days who are average recreational riders are sold design and technology developed and only really helpful for road racing. Lycra kit, $300 helmets, electronic shifting, fragile sub 15lb frames, low spoke wheels, heart rate monitors, power meters, gps linked computers, CO2 cartridges, etc... Consider that most people who buy race designed bikes never enter a bicycle race.

The seduction of all modern marketing suggests: You are important.. What you do is important.. What you use is important... It's a self fulfilling positive feedback loop that ensures consumers keep buying expensive new stuff provided by manufacturers who get their new ideas from elite racing. Otherwise... If what you use isn't so important, perhaps what you are doing isn't so important and... maybe you are not so important either. Ego deflation.

Riv and GP just represent the older, well established and probably more appropriate for most, idea of the utility bike and culture. Some have a hard time with that because they are stuck in the above mentioned feedback loop and see it as being less than.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-19-20 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 09-19-20, 12:56 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Riv and GP just represent the older, well established and more appropriate for most idea of the utility bike and culture.
Other noteworthy members of this cadre are Jeff Jones and Pi Manson. I like how all three are excellent craftsmen and designers, and not just philosophical throwbacks.

Cool film here
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Old 09-19-20, 01:43 PM
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Happily, I don't think this thread is going the way the OP anticipated...
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Old 09-19-20, 02:41 PM
  #38  
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I've posted on Rivendell before.

I get parts of it. I agree that if you want a tough, practical frame for utility cycling, steel is still the way to go. I like that they've taken measures to aggressively lower their prices. I think that they offer quality, reliable stuff at a fair price: even their component choices are good compromises between cost and quality. The Rivendell aesthetic may be divisive, but at least it's distinctive and coherent. I can even understand why he advocates friction shifting, pinned flat pedals, Crocs and mustache bars, for some people that stuff makes some sense.

Then you get to the stuff I don't get. The idea that any more than seven cogs is pointless. The anti shifter/brake lever stance. The idea than anyone with their bars lower than their saddle is doing so for style purposes only. The disregard for any cycling-specific clothing. The flat labeling of anything carbon as dangerous. The insistence that clip-in pedals are stupid. Grant's belief that disc brakes, tubeless, direct mount stems... pretty much anything invented after 1979 is worthless. The tone Grant sets that anyone who likes to ride fast "just doesn't get it". The in general "my way or the highway" way of running a business. It's annoying and highly debatable.
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Old 09-19-20, 03:50 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Interesting to look at the history of bicycle design ...
Your whole thesis is based on the false premise that there are two types of bikes Ė utility and race Ė and that road bikes and race bikes are the same thing. They are not.
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Old 09-19-20, 04:07 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
I've posted on Rivendell before.

I get parts of it. I agree that if you want a tough, practical frame for utility cycling, steel is still the way to go. I like that they've taken measures to aggressively lower their prices. I think that they offer quality, reliable stuff at a fair price: even their component choices are good compromises between cost and quality. The Rivendell aesthetic may be divisive, but at least it's distinctive and coherent. I can even understand why he advocates friction shifting, pinned flat pedals, Crocs and mustache bars, for some people that stuff makes some sense.

Then you get to the stuff I don't get. The idea that any more than seven cogs is pointless. The anti shifter/brake lever stance. The idea than anyone with their bars lower than their saddle is doing so for style purposes only. The disregard for any cycling-specific clothing. The flat labeling of anything carbon as dangerous. The insistence that clip-in pedals are stupid. Grant's belief that disc brakes, tubeless, direct mount stems... pretty much anything invented after 1979 is worthless. The tone Grant sets that anyone who likes to ride fast "just doesn't get it". The in general "my way or the highway" way of running a business. It's annoying and highly debatable.
I have no issue with people making bikes that buck the trends, or hark back to an earlier time, or whatever makes the buyers like those bikes. Where they lose me is when they feel the need to denigrate others for choosing differently, or worse, try and tell me how I think and how I chose the bikes I have.

I like that bikes like Rivendell are still being made and folks are still buying them, but I have no interest in having one, and by the same token I have no beef with anyone who wants that style of bike and doesn't want the kind of bikes I ride.

"The world is so full of a number of things, I'm sure we should all be as happy as kings."
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Old 09-19-20, 04:08 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Your whole thesis is based on the false premise that there are two types of bikes Ė utility and race Ė and that road bikes and race bikes are the same thing. They are not.
Not at all. Of course there are many types of bicycles. I just mentioned a couple of the more dominant trends. Plus I mentioned three (you forgot mtb).

I don't want to argue but your attempt to dismiss is pretty lame.
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Old 09-19-20, 04:50 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by djcookie View Post
Yoga is a pseudo-spiritual fraud.
When a long-time yoga instructor friend of mine was recently moaning about his latest yoga-related injury, I was thinking the same thing but knew that he wouldn't want to hear it.

Grant Pedersen managed to create his own niche in the market by brilliantly using the us-versus-them approach of casting racers and MAMILs as the bad guys and convincing nonracer bike enthusiasts that they're the sensible good guys. Hey, divide and conquer works.

I'm glad that he succeeded---the U.S. bike community would have been much, much duller without him. Whether you agree with him or not, just about everything he writes somehow has that elusive magical quality of being irresistibly thought-provoking. I always want to argue out any of his points that I disagree with, and I value anyone who has that effect on me. And the bikes are, of course, gorgeous. Every time I see one out in the world, it reminds me of the thrill of seeing all the beautiful bikes at trade shows when I worked in the industry.

It's just a shame that Grant's successful trolling, for that's essentially what it was and is, also leads to the kind of ill feeling represented by many posts in this thread.
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Old 09-19-20, 04:58 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
snip . . .

Grant Pedersen managed to create his own niche in the market by brilliantly using the us-versus-them approach of casting racers and MAMILs as the bad guys and convincing nonracer bike enthusiasts that they're the sensible good guys. Hey, divide and conquer works.

snip . . .

It's just a shame that Grant's successful trolling, for that's essentially what it was and is, also leads to the kind of ill feeling represented by many posts in this thread.
Grant Peterson is not a troll trying to polarize the cycling community. He has views and he sells bikes and he sells a vision about bikes. That vision does not include attacking people who disagree with him. Don't confuse page after page of people on BF going on endlessly about Grant Peterson as having anything to do with him or his business.
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Old 09-19-20, 05:00 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by fishboat View Post
You've been on it for quite a while already
Yeah I suppose I'm on more than one person's "iggy list". A regular Iggy Pop I guess.
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Old 09-19-20, 05:26 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
The seduction of all modern marketing suggests: You are important.. What you do is important.. What you use is important... It's a self fulfilling positive feedback loop that ensures consumers keep buying expensive new stuff provided by manufacturers who get their new ideas from elite racing.
When I read this the first thing I thought of was Shimano SIS.

Today, few people would dismiss its impact.

John
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Old 09-19-20, 05:44 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
When I read this the first thing I thought of was Shimano SIS.

Today, few people would dismiss its impact.

John
It is indeed not a black and white issue in that regard. Some advances really do create a better interface for most people. Indexed shifting eliminated a lot of guess work when trying to find the correct position of the shifter. another advance along those lines would be moving the shifter of the DT and into the cockpit area.

But lets consider electronic shifting. Some questions arise:

Do the majority of people using it really need that degree of technology?
Was indexed brifter shifting really that hard?
What is given up when the mechanism becomes so advanced one can no longer service it independently?

Those are some of the ideas/trains of thought that might find some seeking a simpler, user friendly approach to cycling. Conversely, some would argue that the most modern iterations of equipment are also user friendly in the sense that it is very easy to slap a credit card on the counter of an LBS to purchase parts or service. Two different ways of looking at it. Access to disposable income, and the inherent value placed on self sufficiency or ability to problem solve would tend to sway the individual. I couldn't argue one way or the other.
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Old 09-19-20, 05:57 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by djcookie View Post
Just a handful of boomers who are bored, constipated and have an inflated sense of self importance based upon anon forum post count.



This silly post is poorly written and deliberately provocative.



Note that he didn't say "successful" bike company, when you consider GP's biannual 'I'm all out of money, please help!' pledge drives. Fortunately for him, the pandemic led to what is likely an indefinite bike boom saving his company.




Claims to put poster on ignore, posts in my thread half a dozen times. Passive aggressive much?



Yoga is a pseudo-spiritual fraud. Lifting and swinging kettle bells is a recipe for injury. There are much, much safer ways to train for bone/muscle strength: walking, hiking, pushups, pullups, etc.



Agreed. They're much dumber than I anticipated.

You've entered the wrong forum. Seems like Trollheim is more your style.
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Old 09-19-20, 06:06 PM
  #48  
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I would like to see programmable electronic shifting, through an app. It would be nice to be able to shift any drive train setup, 1x to 3x / 6 to 12, with all the automatic trimming. But unfortunately it will only happen, and probably never, from a third party. I don’t see electronics as a issue.

John
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Old 09-19-20, 06:29 PM
  #49  
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Speaking of yoga, anyone else catch the Bikram documentary in Netflix? Pretty good. Reminded me of the Rashni documentary on there. Weird. But you canít look away.

Either way, ride comfortable. If thatís jean shorts, go full Keith. If not, buy some boutique bibs. Whatever. Don worry be happy.
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Old 09-19-20, 06:44 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by djcookie View Post

Note that he didn't say "successful" bike company, when you consider GP's biannual 'I'm all out of money, please help!' pledge drives. Fortunately for him, the pandemic led to what is likely an indefinite bike boom saving his company.
Who is "he?" Do you refer to yourself in the third person? Riv had been in business since the 90s, that's not bad. What bike do you have? Do you know how many times that company has been bankrupt?
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