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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

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Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me

Old 09-22-20, 12:32 PM
  #151  
woodcraft
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I donít care much one way or the other about Grant Petersonís designs. I donít tour and it obvious that neither do you.

You donít have any clue about the people here who have ridden thousands of miles through all sorts of weather on those exact same bikes. What comfort and efficiency do you think is appropriate riding across states, even the country?

Do real touring in your kit first and then report back.

John

I have toured long miles and share BoraxKid's cringing reaction at the idea of covering any distance on a bike & riding position like that.

Perhaps those people that (I also) don't have a clue about could chime in with their experience while, for example, being 25 miles out from the nearest resupply, in a 15+ mph headwind in late afternoon.


I did, however, consider the idea of doing a tour on a push scooter since the slower you go, the more you see.
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Old 09-22-20, 12:34 PM
  #152  
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Nostradomus.. mass hypnosis.. mooks... half price day at the hyperbole store.
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Old 09-22-20, 12:34 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
And yet there's nothing revolutionary about it, even by 1987 standards. Your emperor is naked.
Lol. Ok.
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Old 09-22-20, 12:38 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
He was trying to gain notoriety for his flailing boutique bike business, so he made a bunch of "controversial" statements into a book to help move his merch. He didn't predict anything (despite the claims of some people in this thread), he just published a book in which he regurgitated what others were already saying. Take GP off your pedestal and recognize him for what he actually is; that's the whole point of this thread. The guy is a decent businessman who found a way to keep his niche-market business alive, nothing more, nothing less.
Again.. so much inside knowledge of a guy you had never heard of four days ago.
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Old 09-22-20, 12:40 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
He was trying to gain notoriety for his flailing boutique bike business, so he made a bunch of "controversial" statements into a book to help move his merch. He didn't predict anything (despite the claims of some people in this thread), he just published a book in which he regurgitated what others were already saying. Take GP off your pedestal and recognize him for what he actually is; that's the whole point of this thread. The guy is a decent businessman who found a way to keep his niche-market business alive, nothing more, nothing less.
Pedestal . . .

I am no GP customer or disciple. I found GP's book in a Goodwill for less than $5.00. Since I'm at best the 2nd owner of that book, GP and his publisher haven't gained a cent from me. I found that particular book an interesting read, and some of his ideas in that book just reinforced what I already believed. Which is, no matter how you gear up, "Just Ride".



Last edited by FiftySix; 09-22-20 at 12:49 PM. Reason: video
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Old 09-22-20, 01:08 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
You seemed to miss several important points. No one is upset that Petersen is marketing to mooks who think his bikes are pretty. People in this thread were just discussing the guy's obvious hypocrisy and some of the ridiculous statements he made. Then his stans came in and started claiming Petersen is some kind of Bike-strodamus, despite trends predating his every "prediction." I don't think anyone was getting "unhinged" or saying that Petersen ever hurt anyone. Were you replying to the right thread?

Pretty funny because I'm pretty sure I'm the one who brought up the contradiction between his writing and his product and I'm also a stan by your count because I recognize that he was writing the book at a time when it was very counter to the trends in the industry.

No one was claiming he invented the touring bike or the wide-tired drop bar bike, just that he was an early proponent and producer of multi-function drop bar wide tires. I'm pretty sure Just Ride is actually a compilation of stuff he had been writing for years before 2012.

I'm not saying he's some kind of genius or messianic figure, just that I think you're full of crap when you dismiss everything he wrote as crap.
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Old 09-22-20, 01:08 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
I have toured long miles and share BoraxKid's cringing reaction at the idea of covering any distance on a bike & riding position like that.

Perhaps those people that (I also) don't have a clue about could chime in with their experience while, for example, being 25 miles out from the nearest resupply, in a 15+ mph headwind in late afternoon.


I did, however, consider the idea of doing a tour on a push scooter since the slower you go, the more you see.
I crossed the country with a 76 year old fellow who turned 77 during the trip. He had a bad back and inverted his drop bars so he was practically sitting straight up. When the trip ended he started riding home to the Philadelphia Ďburbs until his wife made him pack it in.

The guy had been in the RCAF and spent two years in a Nazi POW camp during WWII, so maybe that made him extra tough. Or maybe itís not as bad as you might imagine. My touring position is not an aggressive one, and I travel with relatively large front bags. Just finished a 440 mile tour on Sunday that featured several days of moderate to strong headwinds and a good amount of nasty hills.
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Old 09-22-20, 01:11 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
I don't think anyone was getting "unhinged"

this simple, sanctimonious capitalist
marketing to mooks
the guy's obvious hypocrisy
asinine ad copy
turn trollposting into a career
asinine takes on cycling
overpriced, ugly steel frames fitted with inferior components
pointless ego embrocation
You should totally demand to speak to the manager.
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Old 09-22-20, 01:18 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post

No $400 in racks isn't too much if your thing is riding with crap on your bike no matter how much you hem haw and justify a stiff frame and good racks are required if you want to spend more than a day or two on your bike.
Hey! Nothing that goes on my $400+ Riv racks or in my $500+ panniers is ďcrap.Ē


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Old 09-22-20, 01:27 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I crossed the country with a 76 year old fellow who turned 77 during the trip. He had a bad back and inverted his drop bars so he was practically sitting straight up. When the trip ended he started riding home to the Philadelphia Ďburbs until his wife made him pack it in.

The guy had been in the RCAF and spent two years in a Nazi POW camp during WWII, so maybe that made him extra tough. Or maybe itís not as bad as you might imagine. My touring position is not an aggressive one, and I travel with relatively large front bags. Just finished a 440 mile tour on Sunday that featured several days of moderate to strong headwinds and a good amount of nasty hills.

Maybe so. At least you and he have drop bars so that brings your hands in, what, a foot?
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Old 09-22-20, 01:30 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I crossed the country with a 76 year old fellow who turned 77 during the trip. He had a bad back and inverted his drop bars so he was practically sitting straight up. When the trip ended he started riding home to the Philadelphia Ďburbs until his wife made him pack it in.

The guy had been in the RCAF and spent two years in a Nazi POW camp during WWII, so maybe that made him extra tough. Or maybe itís not as bad as you might imagine. My touring position is not an aggressive one, and I travel with relatively large front bags. Just finished a 440 mile tour on Sunday that featured several days of moderate to strong headwinds and a good amount of nasty hills.

Not the same thing, but I used to do plenty of long rides on my FX 3 (125-168 miles in a day). I don't find the aero aspect of it makes much difference even at 20 mph, it's more noticeable in limiting the top speeds than it is in wearing me out at normal cruising speeds. I also think it makes up for any fatigue factor in fighting aero forces by being a posture that's slightly easier to maintain and, for me, being a better set up to climb hills. My real reasons for switching to drop bars is because it's a little bit easier on the hands and I really enjoy squeezing out that extra 1-2 mph at the top end of the range on the flats.

Aero generally isn't really that effective against headwinds for the simple reason that they usually are at least slightly perpendicular to the direction your heading--i.e., also a bit of a crosswind. We're streamlined for the air hitting us directly in the face, not the one hitting you in the cheek..
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Old 09-22-20, 01:33 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Hey! Nothing that goes on my $400+ Riv racks or in my $500+ panniers is “crap.”



Well, so much for the rumor you're growing mushrooms in one of those bags. Heard you needed them for your roadside risotto.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:04 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Hey! Nothing that goes on my $400+ Riv racks or in my $500+ panniers is “crap.”





Here's my silly piece of junk with it's dumb racks and one set of panniers




I also think kit is super important to ride your bike so I ride in my SPD SL flip flops
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Old 09-22-20, 02:35 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
My name is not Dunning-Kruger, it's BoraxKid.
That one seems to have gone right over your head.


Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
And yet there's nothing revolutionary about it, even by 1987 standards. Your emperor is naked.
I'm guessing that you were not around, or at least were not riding bikes, in 1987.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:35 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Aero generally isn't really that effective against headwinds for the simple reason that they usually are at least slightly perpendicular to the direction your heading--i.e., also a bit of a crosswind. We're streamlined for the air hitting us directly in the face, not the one hitting you in the cheek..
This is just nonsense now. Anything that reduces the area you are presenting to the wind helps to reduce drag. That's just basic science. Whether or not you can perceive any advantage is irrelevant, the maths and the power numbers will always prove that there is an advantage to being more aerodynamic. If you want to spend extra effort to go the same speed, go ahead and do your thing, but don't spread mis-information about basic science.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:43 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
This is just nonsense now. Anything that reduces the area you are presenting to the wind helps to reduce drag. That's just basic science. Whether or not you can perceive any advantage is irrelevant, the maths and the power numbers will always prove that there is an advantage to being more aerodynamic. If you want to spend extra effort to go the same speed, go ahead and do your thing, but don't spread mis-information about basic science.
You should write a book about it.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:48 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
It sounds like that old timer would have had a better trip if he could have gotten into a better position on his bike; he probably could have put up a better fight against the wind. Was he a prisoner or a guard at that camp? Did he sprechen good Deutsch?
He did just fine. And I can see you donít know what the RCAF is. Not surprised.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:50 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post


Here's my silly piece of junk with it's dumb racks and one set of panniers




I also think kit is super important to ride your bike so I ride in my SPD SL flip flops
Wow! I have a set of Beckman panniers post his split with Bruce. Did we discuss that in Touring? Someone stole my Beckman racks and the bike they were attached to. BTW...Love that paint.

Last edited by indyfabz; 09-22-20 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:52 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
It sounds like that old timer would have had a better trip if he could have gotten into a better position on his bike; he probably could have put up a better fight against the wind. Was he a prisoner or a guard at that camp? Did he sprechen good Deutsch?

That's just sick. You really are flailing.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:57 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by BoraxKid View Post
This is just nonsense now. Anything that reduces the area you are presenting to the wind helps to reduce drag. That's just basic science. Whether or not you can perceive any advantage is irrelevant, the maths and the power numbers will always prove that there is an advantage to being more aerodynamic. If you want to spend extra effort to go the same speed, go ahead and do your thing, but don't spread mis-information about basic science.

See, this is why you shouldn't keep talking. The point is that streamlining really isn't reducing your exposure your exposure to wind from the side. I get that there might be some small mathematical effect for the portion that's coming from the front but if I can't perceive it, it's because it's too small to matter unless I'm actually racing. I'm still going to cover the same number of miles in roughly the same amount of time. I'm not exactly sweating out the issue of whether it takes a minute or so longer to cover 100 miles.

Headwinds suck, aero or no.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:59 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
That's just sick. You really are flailing.
IKR. Stu lived to age 91 and had chunks of guys like BK in his stool.
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Old 09-22-20, 02:59 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
He did just fine. And I can see you donít know what the RCAF is. Not surprised.

He knows, he just thinks it's funny to accuse an old man who suffered being a POW with treason.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:08 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
IKR. Stu lived to age 91 and had chunks of guys like BK in his stool.
Sounds like quite the fellow, indy. D'you recall what part of this chunk of ice he was from?
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Old 09-22-20, 03:19 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
if I can't perceive it, it's because it's too small to matter

No, that's not how this works. Whether or not you want to admit it, aerodynamics have application beyond racing, because air resistance is a real thing. Regardless of how you feel in the moment, in a non-aero position, you will exert yourself more than if you were in an aero position on your bike. That might be fine for you, depending on what your goals are, but over time, you will fatigue faster and it will take you significantly longer to reach your destination. A fun ride becomes a tedious chore when you're needlessly plowing into the wind. This is why the club I rode my first brevets with advocated for using drop bars, butterfly bars, or even clip-on aero bars; no one was racing, yet everyone recognized that getting the most return on your expended effort meant getting out of the wind, because air resistance matters at all speeds. Even when the wind is not coming directly from the front, there is still a huge advantage to be gained from presenting a smaller cross section.
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Old 09-22-20, 03:21 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
He knows, he just thinks it's funny to accuse an old man who suffered being a POW with treason.
I never accused anyone of treason. Please stop telling lies about me.
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