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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

Old 10-02-20, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
You have obviously never spent much time reading the A&S forum.
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Old 10-02-20, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Cool! Gonna ask my sister-in-law to hook me up with some sweet accessories!
I could ask the same from my step-kids. Which means the ultimate beneficiary of the "reparations" from Riv wouldn't be the intended person of color.

Just another type of straw purchase, IMO.
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Old 10-02-20, 08:19 AM
  #28  
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So if one parent is white, the other black, do you get 22.5% discount? What about just one black grand parent? You need to show your family tree to claim this benefit? Exactly how the Nazis structured their race laws that gave citizens certain rights based on their "race".

The road to hell is plastered with good intentions. I get it, they try to do something good. But this plays right into the propaganda of a certain "party" that now has an argument to claim white people are discriminated against.

Chinese immigrants were treated poorly in this country. Remember the "Irish need not apply" signs in stores? And the internments of (US citizens) Japanese in WWII? No discount for them?

BTW, there are no biological human races. The concept of race was invented during the enlightenment in Europe where it was frowned upon on to enslave or kill fellow humans (mostly fellow Christians). The solution? Declare the people one wanted to enslave were a different race. Easy peasy. This bogus science peaked with Himmler and Mengele et al who tried to prove that whites historically are superior. All bogus, obviously, and doesn't withstand actual science (like genetics).
Sad to see we still use this concept of Race in this country.
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Old 10-02-20, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by son_of_clyde View Post
bunch of virtue signaling *******. F the lot of them.

does self-indentifying count too ?
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Old 10-02-20, 08:30 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
So if one parent is white, the other black, do you get 22.5% discount? What about just one black grand parent? You need to show your family tree to claim this benefit? Exactly how the Nazis structured their race laws that gave citizens certain rights based on their "race".

The road to hell is plastered with good intentions. I get it, they try to do something good. But this plays right into the propaganda of a certain "party" that now has an argument to claim white people are discriminated against.

Chinese immigrants were treated poorly in this country. Remember the "Irish need not apply" signs in stores? And the internments of (US citizens) Japanese in WWII? No discount for them?

BTW, there are no biological human races. The concept of race was invented during the enlightenment in Europe where it was frowned upon on to enslave or kill fellow humans (mostly fellow Christians). The solution? Declare the people one wanted to enslave were a different race. Easy peasy. This bogus science peaked with Himmler and Mengele et al who tried to prove that whites historically are superior. All bogus, obviously, and doesn't withstand actual science (like genetics).
Sad to see we still use this concept of Race in this country.
Perhaps Mercedes Benz and BMW will institute reparations pricing on their high priced products to the descendants of victims of their country's race based discrimination. They might even use calipers on their prospective customers' facial features in their showrooms to assure themselves that only people of the right race get the discount.
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Old 10-02-20, 08:30 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
So if one parent is white, the other black, do you get 22.5% discount?
In the USA, if society sees you as black then you are treated as being black with all the racism that may or may not come with it. Unfortunately, it's what you look like on the outside which will determine how racism affects you. People in this country typically don't treat an interracial black-white/white-black person as being white just going on outward appearances.
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Old 10-02-20, 08:39 AM
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  1. Remarkably those that support this redistribution of wealth have no fund of their own set up to redistribute THEIR wealth to people with a skin color different than their own. We are all human, there are no biological races, I do not see skin color, I see a fellow human. It is time all of us do as well. I do have preference for bike brands. Does that make me a bad person?
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Old 10-02-20, 09:10 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
Does Rivendell have a history that goes back far enough that they have to make reparations for their past?
Most people alive today, and many companies still in business don't have history going back to slavery. How far back in time do you believe a person or institution needs to have before making reparations becomes necessary? Would you argue that black people in America today are treated equally in reality rather than just in words when necessary?

Originally Posted by 2old View Post
Racism goes both ways; either is wrong IMO! Think I learned something years ago about two wrongs not making a right!
In an ideal world where nobody had ever been disenfranchised due to race I would agree with you. The point of reparations is to begin to make up for the generations of wrongs done to black people in America and try to balance the playing field. I realize that for many white people such as myself it can be hard to recognize the privilege we have had growing up in America because of the color of our skin. If you can look at another white family with more money and a nicer house, then you don't feel privileged, but the way you are treated for the color of your skin is undeniably different than the way a black person is treated in America, and that is your privilege. Working towards the ideal world where people aren't treated differently because of the color of their skin is something I fully embrace, but we aren't there yet, and behaving as if we are is only something we can do because or privilege allows us to ignore the mistreatment of others.

Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
I could ask the same from my step-kids. Which means the ultimate beneficiary of the "reparations" from Riv wouldn't be the intended person of color.

Just another type of straw purchase, IMO.
I'm not suggesting that you would do that, but they did address that in the announcement. They have decided to use the honor system on this and have asked that people respect what they are doing and not take advantage of it. That may be foolish of them, but I would hope that you have enough moral fortitude to not actually take advantage of this unless you are black.

Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
So if one parent is white, the other black, do you get 22.5% discount? What about just one black grand parent? You need to show your family tree to claim this benefit? Exactly how the Nazis structured their race laws that gave citizens certain rights based on their "race".

The road to hell is plastered with good intentions. I get it, they try to do something good. But this plays right into the propaganda of a certain "party" that now has an argument to claim white people are discriminated against.

Chinese immigrants were treated poorly in this country. Remember the "Irish need not apply" signs in stores? And the internments of (US citizens) Japanese in WWII? No discount for them?

BTW, there are no biological human races. The concept of race was invented during the enlightenment in Europe where it was frowned upon on to enslave or kill fellow humans (mostly fellow Christians). The solution? Declare the people one wanted to enslave were a different race. Easy peasy. This bogus science peaked with Himmler and Mengele et al who tried to prove that whites historically are superior. All bogus, obviously, and doesn't withstand actual science (like genetics).
Sad to see we still use this concept of Race in this country.
Society in America doesn't recognize people as half black. It recognizes people as either black or not black and treats them accordingly. Are you suggesting that because one party may now use this as a soundbite to show discrimination against white people it is a bad idea?

Almost all groups have been discriminated against by another group at some point in history for some reason. But in America we have discriminated against black people on the basis of their skin color for 400 years. For most of that time the discrimination was not only legal, but was actually written into the laws. Are there other groups that have been discriminated against in America? Of course, but does that mean we shouldn't do anything to address the mistreatment of black people?

I understand that there aren't biological human races, but there certainly are societal human races, and we live in a world where people are treated differently based on how society views them based on skin color. It may be sad that hat is still the case, but it is the reality in which we live, and so it is a reality that must be faced and address rather than buried.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Perhaps Mercedes Benz and BMW will institute reparations pricing on their high priced products to the descendants of victims of their country's race based discrimination. They might even use calipers on their prospective customers' facial features in their showrooms to assure themselves that only people of the right race get the discount.
You will note that Rivendell is using the honor system for this to avoid the problems you are referencing. Doing so comes with it's own problems such as it can easily be taken advantage of, but they are hoping that people can be reasonable and decent.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:19 AM
  #34  
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In before the lock.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:26 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
I'm not suggesting that you would do that, but they did address that in the announcement. They have decided to use the honor system on this and have asked that people respect what they are doing and not take advantage of it. That may be foolish of them, but I would hope that you have enough moral fortitude to not actually take advantage of this unless you are black.
You're right, asking my step-kids (who are all in their 20s) to do this is out of the question. It would break the trust we have in one another.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:27 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
Most people alive today, and many companies still in business don't have history going back to slavery. How far back in time do you believe a person or institution needs to have before making reparations becomes necessary? Would you argue that black people in America today are treated equally in reality rather than just in words when necessary?
I don't think reparations are necessary at all. It is preposterous to think that monetary payments are going to do anything to "right the ship" at the root causes of unequal treatment. A hateful racist isn't going to magically go away just because we paid money to his victims.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
I could ask the same from my step-kids. Which means the ultimate beneficiary of the "reparations" from Riv wouldn't be the intended person of color.

Just another type of straw purchase, IMO.
Would the typical Riv purchaser lie about this?

Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
I'm not suggesting that you would do that, but they did address that in the announcement. They have decided to use the honor system on this and have asked that people respect what they are doing and not take advantage of it. That may be foolish of them, but I would hope that you have enough moral fortitude to not actually take advantage of this unless you are black.
If Riv's market is mostly white people (who might not be inclined to lie about this), what's the downside?

Selling a few bikes to people who likely wouldn't have bought from Riv?

Irritating some people who wouldn't have bought a Riv bike anyway?

Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
...and it's not my place to tell them how to spend their money.
People are certainly free to express an opinion about how they spend their money. No one here would be able to "tell" them not to do something.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-02-20 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:33 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Would the typical Riv purchaser lie about this?
My response was in reaction to to someone else suggesting such an action. They were probably kidding and I took it literally. Giving benefit of the doubt and all.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:36 AM
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Good on them for doing something to make a difference. I'm impressed.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
I don't think reparations are necessary at all. It is preposterous to think that monetary payments are going to do anything to "right the ship" at the root causes of unequal treatment. A hateful racist isn't going to magically go away just because we paid money to his victims.
I agree that a hateful racist isn't going to go away because his victims received money. But that money will help a large number of his victims get out of the financial hardships that generations of disenfranchisement have put them in. I'm not saying that I'm actually in favor of financial reparations, just that I am not immediately opposed to the idea. At this point reparations is very much just a vague idea with very little concrete planning behind it. The most that has happened with the idea at this point is that some states have created committees to look at the possibility of reparations, and come up with a more concrete plan of what those reparations look like including both financial reparations, and other forms of support that are less direct financially, but more focused socially. All I know is that the specifics are way outside of my area of expertise, but I am open to learning about and supporting these plans if and hopefully when they are more fleshed out.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:41 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Would the typical Riv purchaser lie about this?


If Riv's market is mostly white people (who might not be inclined to lie about this), what's the downside?

Selling a few bikes to people who likely wouldn't have bought from Riv?

Irritating some people who wouldn't have bought a Riv bike anyway?
I didn't mean to imply there was a downside to them using the honor system, just that some people might think it is foolish of them to do so. I agree, worst case some dishonest people take advantage of this, but Rivendell has clearly run the numbers on their end and can afford to do this, so they won't be financially hurt if people lie.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:46 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
I didn't mean to imply there was a downside to them using the honor system, just that some people might think it is foolish of them to do so. I agree, worst case some dishonest people take advantage of this, but Rivendell has clearly run the numbers on their end and can afford to do this, so they won't be financially hurt if people lie.
I have no issue with what you said.

I just think there's not that big of a risk of people taking advantage of it.

Rivendell has (as you said) thought about it (including the risk of it being taken advantage of).

Originally Posted by Skulking View Post
I'm not suggesting that you would do that, but they did address that in the announcement. They have decided to use the honor system on this and have asked that people respect what they are doing and not take advantage of it. That may be foolish of them, but I would hope that you have enough moral fortitude to not actually take advantage of this unless you are black.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:51 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
My response was in reaction to to someone else suggesting such an action. They were probably kidding and I took it literally. Giving benefit of the doubt and all.
I am just saying there likely isn't much of a risk of people lying in this case.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:53 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Mid and high end cycling tends to be a "white-oriented" activity.
come ride the Baltimore bike trails with me and see just how archaic that line of thinking is
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Old 10-02-20, 09:55 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun View Post
So if one parent is white, the other black, do you get 22.5% discount? What about just one black grand parent? You need to show your family tree to claim this benefit? Exactly how the Nazis structured their race laws that gave citizens certain rights based on their "race".

The road to hell is plastered with good intentions. I get it, they try to do something good. But this plays right into the propaganda of a certain "party" that now has an argument to claim white people are discriminated against.

Chinese immigrants were treated poorly in this country. Remember the "Irish need not apply" signs in stores? And the internments of (US citizens) Japanese in WWII? No discount for them?

BTW, there are no biological human races. The concept of race was invented during the enlightenment in Europe where it was frowned upon on to enslave or kill fellow humans (mostly fellow Christians). The solution? Declare the people one wanted to enslave were a different race. Easy peasy. This bogus science peaked with Himmler and Mengele et al who tried to prove that whites historically are superior. All bogus, obviously, and doesn't withstand actual science (like genetics).
Sad to see we still use this concept of Race in this country.
It's possible you are overreacting.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:57 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
come ride the Baltimore bike trails with me and see just how archaic that line of thinking is
He didn't really say what you think he said and your example here doesn't prove what he said is wrong.
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Old 10-02-20, 09:58 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
People in this country typically don't treat an interracial black-white/white-black person as being white just going on outward appearances.
That’s often been my experience in life. Being “well-spoken” affects treatment. “You don’t sound black,” is something I’ve heard more than once.
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Old 10-02-20, 10:13 AM
  #48  
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OK, terrific! Wow, this is a depressing thread.
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Old 10-02-20, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
So preferential treatment based on race alone isn't racist? Well, I suppose it would be if it was a discount only given to a white person. I always thought I wanted a Rivendell until now. I will rejoice to see them go under.
Good lord. You will rejoice to see the business fail? Disagree with the policy, fine, but rejoice at the business failing?...man thats extreme.
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Old 10-02-20, 10:28 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
If people are irritated by this, why do they care?
Maybe I misunderstand this question.

People who are irritated care because its irritating(which they dont like).
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