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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

Old 10-02-20, 10:32 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Charliekeet View Post
OK, terrific! Wow, this is a depressing thread.
You must get depressed easily. Keep smiling and carry on.
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Old 10-02-20, 10:35 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
come ride the Baltimore bike trails with me and see just how archaic that line of thinking is
Come ride the Des Moines bike trails with me and see just how accurate that line of thinking is.

Your comment is just as pointless as mine. Using a small segment to determine if a larger idea is accurate or not is absurd. In the US, recreational/hobby cycling(which Riv for sure sells to, even if they claim otherwise) is absolutely a predominantly white activity, especially at the mid-high end.
Thats not a judgement, its just reality. Obviously racial and cultural minorities cycle for fun and buy mid-high end gear, but recreational/hobby cycling tends to be a white activity.

Your selective example that disproves such a statement is as pointless as my selective example that proves the statement.
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Old 10-02-20, 10:50 AM
  #53  
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I don't have an opinion on reparations, one way or the other. It's a complex issue, and I just haven't made up my mind. But I have read some of the more serious arguments - some of which have been written by solid academics who work in the areas in which economics overlaps with race and history. (I am trained in labor market analysis, which naturally includes the study of labor market discrimination.)

Some of the critical comments in this thread display nearly complete ignorance of the serious arguments for reparations. It's easy to poke holes at a straw man argument, but it's harder to actually learn something and address a proposal honestly.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:22 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
That’s often been my experience in life. Being “well-spoken” affects treatment. “You don’t sound black,” is something I’ve heard more than once.
Who gets to decide what "well spoken" means? People in the north often don't think people with a southern accent are "well spoken".

Historically, "well spoken" was a class marker.

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/22/w...revealing.html

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Old 10-02-20, 11:23 AM
  #55  
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Speaking of reparations, in my mind Rivendells' offer is a discount no matter what Rivendell labels it.

Setting aside 10% of their bikes for a 45% discount seems to indicate that Rivendell knows their customer base isn't typically people of color. Otherwise, I'd think they'd set aside a larger percentage of their bikes for a smaller discount per bike to serve more people and have the same financial cost estimate.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:24 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I don't have an opinion on reparations, one way or the other. It's a complex issue, and I just haven't made up my mind. But I have read some of the more serious arguments - some of which have been written by solid academics who work in the areas in which economics overlaps with race and history. (I am trained in labor market analysis, which naturally includes the study of labor market discrimination.)

Some of the critical comments in this thread display nearly complete ignorance of the serious arguments for reparations. It's easy to poke holes at a straw man argument, but it's harder to actually learn something and address a proposal honestly.
While Riv is calling this "reparations". It seems that this really isn't a part of the "complex issue" you are talking about.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:26 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Come ride the Des Moines bike trails with me and see just how accurate that line of thinking is.
Depends if it is more or less than 8%.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:28 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Who gets to decide what "well spoken" means? People in the north often don't think people with a southern accent are "well spoken".
The listener, with all their prejudices past and present.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:41 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Good lord. You will rejoice to see the business fail? Disagree with the policy, fine, but rejoice at the business failing?...man thats extreme.
You shouldn't be surprised to know there are people like that. I'm not.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:43 AM
  #60  
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Wow that is pretty impressive for RBW to do this, and on the honor system as well. Like a few others have said, I hope this is not abused. I like this company even more now. I don't qualify but my wife would so if she decided she wanted something other than her Walmart Beach cruiser I just bought for her I would have her look at the Rivendell Bikes and would want to support their business for the mere fact they have stepped up and done something like this.
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Old 10-02-20, 11:55 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Come ride the Des Moines bike trails with me and see just how accurate that line of thinking is.

Your comment is just as incorrect as mine. Using a small segment to determine if a larger idea is accurate or not is absurd. In the US, recreational/hobby cycling(which Riv for sure sells to, even if they claim otherwise) is absolutely a predominantly white activity, especially at the mid-high end.
Thats not a judgement, its just reality. Obviously racial and cultural minorities cycle for fun and buy mid-high end gear, but recreational/hobby cycling tends to be a white activity.

Your selective example that disproves such a statement is as incorrect as my selective example that proves the statement.
Just a minor note . . . to describe someone's opinion as "pointless", even if akin to yours, is just asking for trouble. Let's make an effort to keep things peaceful, please?

Actually you both are correct, because it all depends on where you are. I used to ride the famed Central Park trails in NYC and I can assure you there are tons of black and brown recreational & hobbyist riders there, and most likely anywhere else there is a large black or brown concentration you will find the same. I've never been there but I doubt that would hold true for Des Moines.
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Old 10-02-20, 12:12 PM
  #62  
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Too bad this isn't based on number of Public Enemy records in the collection. Or jazz albums. I think I could qualify for some kinda rebate by proxy.
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Old 10-02-20, 12:15 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Just a minor note . . . to describe someone's opinion as "pointless", even if akin to yours, is just asking for trouble. Let's make an effort to keep things peaceful, please?

Actually you both are correct, because it all depends on where you are. I used to ride the famed Central Park trails in NYC and I can assure you there are tons of black and brown recreational & hobbyist riders there, and most likely anywhere else there is a large black or brown concentration you will find the same. I've never been there but I doubt that would hold true for Des Moines.
I fully accept your minor note and agree with it. I shouldnt have said 'pointless' so in an attempt to keep things peaceful, here is some clarification.
Hey Pop n Wood- your post wasnt pointless, it just fails basic logic because it is anecdotal in nature.

Now that I have agreed and corrected the mistake, Ill add that your point on location is exactly correct. He sees a lot of one thing, but that doesnt mean that is everywhere or even in most places. People in the workplace tend to be under 6' tall, but if you play in the NBA, what you experience would be different. That doesnt mean an NBA team disproves the reality that people in the workplace tend to be under 6' tall.
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Old 10-02-20, 12:17 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
Speaking of reparations, in my mind Rivendells' offer is a discount no matter what Rivendell labels it.
Setting aside 10% of their bikes for a 45% discount seems to indicate that Rivendell knows their customer base isn't typically people of color. Otherwise, I'd think they'd set aside a larger percentage of their bikes for a smaller discount per bike to serve more people and have the same financial cost estimate.
Extract from the Rivendell News Release:
We've dabbled in Reparations since July, 2018, when we offered a 45 percent discount to Black customers who shopped in person. There weren't many, and since we stopped taking walk-in customers because of COVID, now it's at zero. That's about to change.

Starting October, 2020, we're going national with a broader brush variant of the same plan, but now with a name and an acronym: Black Reparations Pricing (BRP). We're in a good position to do it. We can do without government insistence or shareholder fist-pounding.
Assuming that only the approved race of people get the discount, I doubt that Rivendell has much to worry about lost income from the 10% set aside for discount. Perhaps I will think different if Rivendell provided information about how many black customers they have ever had at any price on any of their product line, before and especially after their dabbling in race based discounts.

As an aside, I expect that the powers that be who are aware of the likely characteristics of Bike Forums' customer base (presumably Google, Facebook and other data miners) could provide some information about the racial make up of the BF members and BF readers/clickers/posters who might also be likely Rivendell customers.. Anybody willing to bet with their own money that over 1% would qualify for Rivendell's discount let alone also be interested in buying one with or without a discount??

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Old 10-02-20, 12:20 PM
  #65  
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Thank you Rivendell. No this isn't perfect and isn't going to make much of a difference. But it is a very small start. I long for a country where we can discuss all of our past and all the repercussions that have come from it that make our written Declaration of Independence such a hollow document. "All men are created equal ..." (Some more so than others.)

I hope to see a day when what Rivendell is doing is done by many firms; that bright minds figure out how to do it better with more effect. (I wouldn't put Grant Peterson as head of that committee in my firm.) And yes, if we really did have meaningful reparations, all of us whites would come down a real notch on the wealth ladder. But we live in a country built on black labor. (A real part of old Boston's wealth came from the Lowell cotton mills. Those mills were the start of our industrial age. Cotton from the slave plantations. New England's seaports - ships to haul slaves, sugar and rum - all very closely intertwined. Cod, cheap nourishment for Caribbean slaves.)

The imbalances go on to this day. Education, decent housing, health care - all far more available to whites than blacks. Any system of growth that is based on equal anything simple keeps the imbalance in place. (Imagine two piles of money, $1,000 and $2,000.. Any money over $1,200 can be invested at twice inflation. Under $1,000 - none can be invested, $1,000 to $1,200 can be invested at around the inflation level. it is quite obvious that those possessing the smaller pile aren't getting anywhere but the those with the bigger pile in future decades get progressively more simply because they started with more. Their kids start with bigger piles.

Again, thank you Grant Peterson and Rivendell.

Ben
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Old 10-02-20, 12:24 PM
  #66  
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Now there is no chance I would ever purchase anything from them
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Old 10-02-20, 12:32 PM
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Doesnt Rivendell occasionally cry poverty and beg the cycling world for donations/business?
Seems pretty odd that after doing that they can now magically afford to drastically discount their goods.
Hrmmm...
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Old 10-02-20, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
I would think that anyone paying full price may care because there is no doubt that the discount to other buyers is being factored into the full price no matter what they are spouting on their website
If the prices were X before this and X afterwards, then what's the difference?

Riv would need to "factor in", at most, a loss of 5%.

Maybe, they were already "factoring in" the price of hookers and blow but no one knew about it.

I can understand how some people might not like it but some people here are making a bigger deal out of this than it is.

If they don't like it, they are probably better off knowing about it.

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Old 10-02-20, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
Doesn’t Rivendell occasionally cry poverty and beg the cycling world for donations/business?
Seems pretty odd that after doing that they can now magically afford to drastically discount their goods.
Hrmmm...
Maybe they are counting on more donations from the cycling world.
Those BF posters who feel so inclined to "Be a Reparationist" can make a contribution to the cause:
https://www.rivbike.com/products/brp-contribution
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Old 10-02-20, 12:48 PM
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Good opportunity for someone to scoop up discounted, sought after bikes, not to ride, but to flip . . .
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Old 10-02-20, 12:52 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
You have obviously never spent much time reading the A&S forum.
I'd rather spend time in Trollheim than go there most days. At least the trolls are occasionally funny.
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Old 10-02-20, 12:56 PM
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I'm a big fan of Rivendell and what they do. Subscribed to the Reader back when, bought stuff, etc. Back in the late 90s /early 200s, they really were a voice in the wilderness... nobody was doing cool-road-bike-stuff-for-people-who-aren't-racy.

I'm oddly divided about this.

On the one hand, they're putting their own resources on the table for something they believe, and not demanding that anyone do likewise. They're not trying to shame anyone, except potential cheaters, who deserve it. If you're gonna do this kind of thing, this is the right way to do it.

On the other hand, from reading Grant's blog posts, he's pretty clearly decided that Critical Race Theory is the correct way to think about issues of identity and racism. Since I think that every single word that every Critical Race Theorist, from Derek Bell to Kimberle Crenshaw to ... to Robin DiAngelo to Ibrahm Kendi, ever wrote is wrong, including the "ands" and the "ors," I have to work a little bit to separate my loathing for the ideology from my assessment of an individual action taken under the influence of that ideology.

I think I come down on the side of "Nice thing done by a nice guy motivated by both bad ideology and real issues that won't have any effect on anything except Rivendell's tax returns." I wish Grant would engage with the growing body of anti-Critical-Theory scholarship, because he's bought an intentionally-constructed bill of goods, but that's unlikely, 'cuz that's how new religions work, and it's not the first one he's converted to over the years, and oh well.

--Shannon
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Old 10-02-20, 01:05 PM
  #73  
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Good on Grant Petersen for living his beliefs and incorporating them into his business. There is a healthy deal of irony involved in Rivendell being the only bicycle company to actively become involved in reparations. If there are others, I'm sure someone on BF will be very quick to correct me.
It coincides with a new movement in California's government to take real steps toward creating a more balanced playing field:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/reparat...ack-americans/
I see no way that this would be objectionable to any American, unless you are in denial about the reality of our history as a nation or racist.

That said, his bikes are still too expensive.
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Old 10-02-20, 01:06 PM
  #74  
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Just for interest: is this legal or permitted when it's a step toward Socialism? AIR, "from each according to their ability; to each according to their need" but possibly misquoted.
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Old 10-02-20, 01:07 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by ShannonM View Post
Since I think that every single word that every Critical Race Theorist, from Derek Bell to Kimberle Crenshaw to ... to Robin DiAngelo to Ibrahm Kendi, ever wrote is wrong, including the "ands" and the "ors," I have to work a little bit to separate my loathing for the ideology from my assessment of an individual action taken under the influence of that ideology.
If this was true, that would be a very impressive feat!
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