Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"
10-03-20, 10:59 AM
#126
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"Saying that you don't see race is insulting to every person of color on the face of the earth. " This is a blanket statement spoken from emotion, not rationale. My ancestors were judged by their skin color, their looks, their customs. My parents raised me to approach life differently, to approach people the same way I see myself. Sure I have been called racist names, mocked, and excluded, however it did not stop me from rising above and succeeding. I guarantee am not the only person of color (I hate that term, but feel I must speak in your language construct to get my point across) who feels this way. It is time to trash the negative attitude toward others and life, and get on with living.
MLK is still banging on the coffin lid trying to get people to fully understand his message. Hearts are so hardened in this world.
MLK is still banging on the coffin lid trying to get people to fully understand his message. Hearts are so hardened in this world.
Good stuff
10-03-20, 11:40 AM
#127
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Yes. Was that a bad thing?
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10-03-20, 12:23 PM
#130
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Of course it's hyperbole.
But I really do think that the Critical Theorists are utterly wrong, using fallacious reasoning to derive incoherent conclusions from faulty premises. When you explicitly and proudly mix Foucault and Derrida into a base of Marx and Freud, you're going to produce nonsense that pretends to be wisdom. Critical Theorists are Humanities academics who present themselves as Social Scientists, but where they really belong is in the Ag department.
--Shannon
But I really do think that the Critical Theorists are utterly wrong, using fallacious reasoning to derive incoherent conclusions from faulty premises. When you explicitly and proudly mix Foucault and Derrida into a base of Marx and Freud, you're going to produce nonsense that pretends to be wisdom. Critical Theorists are Humanities academics who present themselves as Social Scientists, but where they really belong is in the Ag department.
--Shannon
Any links to what you find less utterly wrong?
10-03-20, 01:31 PM
#131
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Got the email from Riv Thursday, unsubscribed them. It will be permanent!
Tim
Tim
Last edited by tkamd73; 10-03-20 at 04:11 PM.
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10-03-20, 01:45 PM
#132
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spdntrxi, I am a literate person and understand what was written. Unfortunately for me, I suppose, I am unable to read the unintended meaning of "It is an insult to every person of color..."
"Pretty ironic preaching about race and referencing the great MLK while at the same time telling a total stranger what he has seen or should see with his own eyes. " I fail to see the irony. Please elaborate.
"Pretty ironic preaching about race and referencing the great MLK while at the same time telling a total stranger what he has seen or should see with his own eyes. " I fail to see the irony. Please elaborate.
10-03-20, 01:52 PM
#133
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On current race race relations: Kmele Foster, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Thomas Chatterton Williams, Glenn Loury. (Not a comprehensive list, kinda ordered form liberal to conservative as I perceive them, but all are interesting.)
On Critical Race Theory: McWhorter again, also James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose. (Their new book "Cynical Theories" is the only intellectual history of this movement I know of that was written by people who are qualified to have an opinion but aren't part of it.) I also highly recommend Lindsay's "Translations From the Wokeish," an online dictionary of Critical Theory terminology based on the academic literature in the relevant fields. It's on his site "New Discourses." The articles on the front page are pretty hit-and-miss.. depends on the authors. But the dictionary is very, very good.
It's hard to find good material on Critical Race Theory. So much discussion of it, pro and con, is ill-informed hysterical ranting by people with a large platform and a tiny clue. And the intentional framing of CRT as "the way that all good people think about race now," so that anyone who disagrees is by definition a racist, doesn't help.
Rest assured, one's moral standing is not dependent on the degree to which one agrees with Ibrahm Kendi and Robin DiAngelo... although it can sure seem that way.
--Shannon
On Critical Race Theory: McWhorter again, also James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose. (Their new book "Cynical Theories" is the only intellectual history of this movement I know of that was written by people who are qualified to have an opinion but aren't part of it.) I also highly recommend Lindsay's "Translations From the Wokeish," an online dictionary of Critical Theory terminology based on the academic literature in the relevant fields. It's on his site "New Discourses." The articles on the front page are pretty hit-and-miss.. depends on the authors. But the dictionary is very, very good.
It's hard to find good material on Critical Race Theory. So much discussion of it, pro and con, is ill-informed hysterical ranting by people with a large platform and a tiny clue. And the intentional framing of CRT as "the way that all good people think about race now," so that anyone who disagrees is by definition a racist, doesn't help.
Rest assured, one's moral standing is not dependent on the degree to which one agrees with Ibrahm Kendi and Robin DiAngelo... although it can sure seem that way.
--Shannon
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10-03-20, 01:54 PM
#134
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10-03-20, 02:01 PM
#135
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Perhaps Mercedes Benz and BMW will institute reparations pricing on their high priced products to the descendants of victims of their country's race based discrimination. They might even use calipers on their prospective customers' facial features in their showrooms to assure themselves that only people of the right race get the discount.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
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10-03-20, 02:06 PM
#136
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regarding "I Don't See Color"
"Saying you don’t see color disregards the privilege and power of the dominant racial group of society, therefore diminishing feelings of bias, prejudice, and racism experienced by people of color."
- from Why The "I Don't See Color" Mantra Is Hurting Your Diversity and Inclusion Efforts
"Well, I'm Black and I want you to see me. . . . I want you to appreciate this color I so proudly wear that was handed down to me by my ancestors that survived the Middle Passage, then survived the atrocities of slavery that our country never wants to really discuss. . . . When you say to me, "I don't see color." that proves to me that you and I live in completely different realms of reality because while living in America I can never not see color because I am constantly reminded of mine."
- from Why I Hate the Phrase "I don't see color"
"Saying you don’t see color disregards the privilege and power of the dominant racial group of society, therefore diminishing feelings of bias, prejudice, and racism experienced by people of color."
- from Why The "I Don't See Color" Mantra Is Hurting Your Diversity and Inclusion Efforts
"Well, I'm Black and I want you to see me. . . . I want you to appreciate this color I so proudly wear that was handed down to me by my ancestors that survived the Middle Passage, then survived the atrocities of slavery that our country never wants to really discuss. . . . When you say to me, "I don't see color." that proves to me that you and I live in completely different realms of reality because while living in America I can never not see color because I am constantly reminded of mine."
- from Why I Hate the Phrase "I don't see color"
Last edited by FiftySix; 10-03-20 at 02:10 PM.
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10-03-20, 02:13 PM
#137
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10-03-20, 02:47 PM
#138
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I'm outraged by Riv's/Grant's racism.
Now ...
If blacks were forced to pay higher interest rates because of their skin color,
or if mortgages were somehow made impossible to get in black neighborhoods,
or if black farmers didn't get loans that matched what white farmers got in amounts or interest rates,
or if blacks were discriminated against in employment,
or f blacks were discriminated against in public education,
or if blacks were discriminated against in policing,
or if blacks were discriminated against in health care,
or if blacks were discriminated against in incarceration,
or if blacks were discriminated against in any number of other unnamed ways,
Then I'd see a case for reparations.
BTW, tax deductions for mortgage interest are very unfairly distributed, not to mention tax deductions for what is in effect private school tuition which are even more unfairly distributed. There are far worse things than socialism.
Hell, even Adam Smith argues for higher taxation on the wealthy, against letting the rich control policy, and against letting corporations control regulations. And yet 'conservatives' today are against higher taxation on the wealthy, for letting the rich control policy, and for letting corporations regulate themselves, all the while calling themselves 'free marketeers.' (To mods: this 'graph is obviously about economics and human behavior, not about politics.)
Now ...
If blacks were forced to pay higher interest rates because of their skin color,
or if mortgages were somehow made impossible to get in black neighborhoods,
or if black farmers didn't get loans that matched what white farmers got in amounts or interest rates,
or if blacks were discriminated against in employment,
or f blacks were discriminated against in public education,
or if blacks were discriminated against in policing,
or if blacks were discriminated against in health care,
or if blacks were discriminated against in incarceration,
or if blacks were discriminated against in any number of other unnamed ways,
Then I'd see a case for reparations.
BTW, tax deductions for mortgage interest are very unfairly distributed, not to mention tax deductions for what is in effect private school tuition which are even more unfairly distributed. There are far worse things than socialism.
Hell, even Adam Smith argues for higher taxation on the wealthy, against letting the rich control policy, and against letting corporations control regulations. And yet 'conservatives' today are against higher taxation on the wealthy, for letting the rich control policy, and for letting corporations regulate themselves, all the while calling themselves 'free marketeers.' (To mods: this 'graph is obviously about economics and human behavior, not about politics.)
Last edited by philbob57; 10-03-20 at 02:55 PM.
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10-03-20, 03:15 PM
#139
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On current race race relations: Kmele Foster, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes, Thomas Chatterton Williams, Glenn Loury. (Not a comprehensive list, kinda ordered form liberal to conservative as I perceive them, but all are interesting.)
On Critical Race Theory: McWhorter again, also James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose. (Their new book "Cynical Theories" is the only intellectual history of this movement I know of that was written by people who are qualified to have an opinion but aren't part of it.) I also highly recommend Lindsay's "Translations From the Wokeish," an online dictionary of Critical Theory terminology based on the academic literature in the relevant fields. It's on his site "New Discourses." The articles on the front page are pretty hit-and-miss.. depends on the authors. But the dictionary is very, very good.
It's hard to find good material on Critical Race Theory. So much discussion of it, pro and con, is ill-informed hysterical ranting by people with a large platform and a tiny clue. And the intentional framing of CRT as "the way that all good people think about race now," so that anyone who disagrees is by definition a racist, doesn't help.
Rest assured, one's moral standing is not dependent on the degree to which one agrees with Ibrahm Kendi and Robin DiAngelo... although it can sure seem that way.
--Shannon
On Critical Race Theory: McWhorter again, also James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose. (Their new book "Cynical Theories" is the only intellectual history of this movement I know of that was written by people who are qualified to have an opinion but aren't part of it.) I also highly recommend Lindsay's "Translations From the Wokeish," an online dictionary of Critical Theory terminology based on the academic literature in the relevant fields. It's on his site "New Discourses." The articles on the front page are pretty hit-and-miss.. depends on the authors. But the dictionary is very, very good.
It's hard to find good material on Critical Race Theory. So much discussion of it, pro and con, is ill-informed hysterical ranting by people with a large platform and a tiny clue. And the intentional framing of CRT as "the way that all good people think about race now," so that anyone who disagrees is by definition a racist, doesn't help.
Rest assured, one's moral standing is not dependent on the degree to which one agrees with Ibrahm Kendi and Robin DiAngelo... although it can sure seem that way.
--Shannon
10-03-20, 03:22 PM
#140
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The big difference is that Germany outlaws public display of Nazi propaganda and statuary. Only in legit museums. In the US, slavery owners and traitors against the country are memorialized in statues by the thousands. Swastikas are not flown publicly like Confederate flags, nor are they incorporated into a state flag. There are no famous 70's TV shows about a two crazy guys in a Porsche with a Swastika on the top running from the cops, and when someone makes a gaffe, says, "Oh, those good old Menchen!!!" Germany actively teaches its youth about their previous generations' transgressions. It has accepted its sordid history and has chosen to learn from it.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
Except in museums ofc
10-03-20, 03:37 PM
#141
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Vintage-styled whimsically-named high end bicycle frames from a crusty Northern California brand named after the mythical land where dwelt Elrond since the second age of Middle Earth is just about the whitest thing ever. This is laughable white guilt posturing.
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10-03-20, 03:39 PM
#142
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The big difference is that Germany outlaws public display of Nazi propaganda and statuary. Only in legit museums. In the US, slavery owners and traitors against the country are memorialized in statues by the thousands. Swastikas are not flown publicly like Confederate flags, nor are they incorporated into a state flag. There are no famous 70's TV shows about a two crazy guys in a Porsche with a Swastika on the top running from the cops, and when someone makes a gaffe, says, "Oh, those good old Menchen!!!" Germany actively teaches its youth about their previous generations' transgressions. It has accepted its sordid history and has chosen to learn from it.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
A lunatic trying to exterminate an entire race is somehow comparable to a relatively brief period of slavery in the US.
Do you even have a clue how long slavery was a world-wide practice before there was ever a single slave in the US? Centuries.
How about Africa?
Blacks have been slaves there for centuries.
How do they get their reparations?
Last edited by BillyD; 10-04-20 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Insult
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10-03-20, 03:42 PM
#144
Senior Member
In the US, slavery owners and traitors against the country are memorialized in statues by the thousands.
Swastikas are not flown publicly like Confederate flags, nor are they incorporated into a state flag.
There are no famous 70's TV shows about a two crazy guys in a Porsche with a Swastika on the top running from the cops, and when someone makes a gaffe, says, "Oh, those good old Menchen!!!"
Germany actively teaches its youth about their previous generations' transgressions. It has accepted its sordid history and has chosen to learn from it.
In the US, we're so busy shouting "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" we cannot possibly accept the fact that we have flaws and need to improve.
Last edited by Hiro11; 10-03-20 at 03:52 PM.
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10-03-20, 05:49 PM
#148
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Well, this stayed above water for longer than I expected. Thanks to all y'all who commented in good faith and helped make this one of the most sincere and interesting conversations around this stuff that I've ever seen on any board I've ever been on. ("Ever," for me, goes back to 2400 baud BBSes and CompuServe.) And I mean every word of that sentence. It really was.
There are, of course, reasons that I wrote that whole paragraph in the past tense. And if you're one of those reasons, then you suck. And nobody agrees with you, not even secretly. And nobody thinks you're smart or brave or edgy, and nobody likes you, or wants to hang out with you, or sleep with you. Because you suck, and people who don't suck, which is most of them but not you, don't want to waste their limited time and energy dealing with people who suck, which is very few of them but includes you.
--Shannon
There are, of course, reasons that I wrote that whole paragraph in the past tense. And if you're one of those reasons, then you suck. And nobody agrees with you, not even secretly. And nobody thinks you're smart or brave or edgy, and nobody likes you, or wants to hang out with you, or sleep with you. Because you suck, and people who don't suck, which is most of them but not you, don't want to waste their limited time and energy dealing with people who suck, which is very few of them but includes you.
--Shannon
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10-03-20, 07:02 PM
#150
Senior Member
spdntrxi, I am a literate person and understand what was written. Unfortunately for me, I suppose, I am unable to read the unintended meaning of "It is an insult to every person of color..."
"Pretty ironic preaching about race and referencing the great MLK while at the same time telling a total stranger what he has seen or should see with his own eyes. " I fail to see the irony. Please elaborate.
"Pretty ironic preaching about race and referencing the great MLK while at the same time telling a total stranger what he has seen or should see with his own eyes. " I fail to see the irony. Please elaborate.
