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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

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Rivendell Bike Works: "Black Reparations Pricing"

Old 10-05-20, 11:38 AM
  #201  
TheLizard
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Originally Posted by 2old View Post
Just for interest: is this legal or permitted when it's a step toward Socialism? AIR, "from each according to their ability; to each according to their need" but possibly misquoted.
AFAIK, California still prohibits businesses (public accommodations) from discriminating based on race (among other things). Federal civil rights legislation does the same thing. So, as far as I can tell, it's not legal. However, I'm willing to bet that there will be no accountability for breaking the letter of the law in this case.

It's nothing like socialism or Marxism, however. They explicitly state that income does NOT matter. Wealthy black people will get the discount. People of modest means that are not black get no discount at all (I'd say poor, but NO poor person could afford their bikes at all).
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Old 10-05-20, 11:44 AM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by Gconan View Post
I believe right now black people are treated equal under the law.
Folks believe all sorts of things that are unsupported by evidence. "Alternative facts" is a trendy description.
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Old 10-05-20, 11:47 AM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by Reflector Guy View Post
Does Rivendell have a history that goes back far enough that they have to make reparations for their past?
How many of us do? On the other hand, someone here MUST be related to George Washington.
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Old 10-05-20, 11:58 AM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by TheLizard View Post
Right, of course. So true... yea.

ummm... say, just for reference, mind you, could you please point me to a few places where I can get a lower price for my skin color?
On this, google is your friend. Here is a summary of several reports on racial differentials in the pricing of auto insurance. This article discusses several studies on discriminatory pricing, including one which found that, during negotiations, new car dealers consistently quote lower prices to whites than to blacks (and lower prices to men than to women). etc. That new car pricing study is one of several that have been done on that issue. Here is a study which finds that black and hispanic homebuyers pay more for homes, all other things (income, credit ratings, neighborhoods, etc) equal, compared to whites.

I'll also note that, on average, whites get paid more than blacks - again, that is after controlling for things like education and experience -- the things that affect productivity. (Go to Figure 2 in that linked article for the "unexplained" wage gap -- the unexplained residual difference between black and white earnings is due to labor market discrimination.) There are a ton of studies on this - I could cite them all day long.

So, there you go: there is plenty of evidence that blacks (and often other minorities) pay more for homes, cars, and auto insurance, than do whites, and that blacks (and other minorities) get paid less, too. I've just thrown a few sources out there; there are plenty of others.

I'm just gonna mention this - I hope it doesn't seem like I am using the "appeal to authority" fallacy, but I just want to give some context: I'm a professional economist (PhD, tenured prof, etc), and I teach in this area (though my research interests have only brushed up against some of these issues). My assertion - the one to which you responded - would not get much argument in a room full of professionals who actually study this stuff. I make that statement because I am routinely in those rooms.

Originally Posted by nigelbison View Post
Race is an immutable characteristic that varies from individual to individual, and is not chosen by the individual. The things you listed don't fit that definition. Also, show evidence of the lower price negotiation you refer to or else its a baseless assertion. Racist policy is reprehensible, and in cases where the people perpetrating racist policy think they are morally justified is even more dangerous and disgusting.
Last I checked, I haven't been able to magically make myself younger. So I think that age is indeed an "immutable factor," and senior citizen discounts aren't illegal. Nor is it illegal that kids get into movie theatres for less than I pay, as well. But again, I'm not an attorney -- and I'll bet that you're not, either.

Last edited by Koyote; 10-05-20 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 10-05-20, 12:14 PM
  #205  
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Old 10-05-20, 12:18 PM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by ShannonM View Post
This is one of the core differences between the Critical Theory and Liberal models of social justice. In the Liberal model, (and, I'd argue, in reality,) "systems" and "societies" are dependent phenomena that derive their properties and even their existence from the individual humans who make them up. In the Critical Theory model, "systems" and "societies" are separate entities, and they have properties and behaviors that do not derive from any of the humans who exist within them.

Thus, under the Liberal model, if all of the individuals in a society start treating everyone the same regardless of race, that society and all of its systems would no longer be racist, because it couldn't be racist if there were no individual racists in it. Critical Race Theory explicitly denies this. Not "denies that it's possible for it to happen," but explicitly and repeatedly denies that anything about the system would change even if it did.

--Shannon
Simple CRT vs. Liberalism chart. Here they term it "Anti-Racism", as popularized by Ibram X. Kendi


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Old 10-05-20, 12:28 PM
  #207  
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can I get my buddy to buy a bike for me?
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Old 10-05-20, 12:37 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
On this, google is your friend. Here is a summary of several reports on racial differentials in the pricing of auto insurance. This article discusses several studies on discriminatory pricing, including one which found that, during negotiations, new car dealers consistently quote lower prices to whites than to blacks (and lower prices to men than to women). etc. That new car pricing study is one of several that have been done on that issue. Here is a study which finds that black and hispanic homebuyers pay more for homes, all other things (income, credit ratings, neighborhoods, etc) equal, compared to whites.

I'll also note that, on average, whites get paid more than blacks - again, that is after controlling for things like education and experience -- the things that affect productivity. (Go to Figure 2 in that linked article for the "unexplained" wage gap -- the unexplained residual difference between black and white earnings is due to labor market discrimination.) There are a ton of studies on this - I could cite them all day long.

So, there you go: there is plenty of evidence that blacks (and often other minorities) pay more for homes, cars, and auto insurance, than do whites, and that blacks (and other minorities) get paid less, too. I've just thrown a few sources out there; there are plenty of others.

I'm just gonna mention this - I hope it doesn't seem like I am using the "appeal to authority" fallacy, but I just want to give some context: I'm a professional economist (PhD, tenured prof, etc), and I teach in this area (though my research interests have only brushed up against some of these issues). My assertion - the one to which you responded - would not get much argument in a room full of professionals who actually study this stuff. I make that statement because I am routinely in those rooms.



Last I checked, I haven't been able to magically make myself younger. So I think that age is indeed an "immutable factor," and senior citizen discounts aren't illegal. Nor is it illegal that kids get into movie theatres for less than I pay, as well. But again, I'm not an attorney -- and I'll bet that you're not, either.
None of these are examples of explicitly race-based policies that impose different costs based on skin color.

This is "racism of the gaps" - that is, since the outcomes are different, it can only be explained by racism. Your link states in the study summary:

Further, the estimated premiums do not vary significantly with the racial composition of the neighborhood; nor, strikingly, do they vary with the race of the seller. This latter finding suggests that racial prejudice on the part of sellers is not the primary explanation for the robust premiums we uncover.
Further suggesting that the researchers were expecting to find racism, but realized it didn't explain their findings. When you look for it everywhere, you can always find evidence that supports your preconceived opinion.

Obviously, in an academic environment, you will not get any argument from others about such an assertion. They're not stupid, they know they cannot speak up about it. They're looking after their OWN income.

Last edited by TheLizard; 10-05-20 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 10-05-20, 01:17 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Stupidest thing I've ever heard
This is the new appeasement policy now sweeping the country.....appease a certain class and maybe they will shut up and go away.
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Old 10-05-20, 01:29 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
On this, google is your friend. Here is a summary of several reports on racial differentials in the pricing of auto insurance. This article discusses several studies on discriminatory pricing, including one which found that, during negotiations, new car dealers consistently quote lower prices to whites than to blacks (and lower prices to men than to women). etc. That new car pricing study is one of several that have been done on that issue. Here is a study which finds that black and hispanic homebuyers pay more for homes, all other things (income, credit ratings, neighborhoods, etc) equal, compared to whites.

I'll also note that, on average, whites get paid more than blacks - again, that is after controlling for things like education and experience -- the things that affect productivity. (Go to Figure 2 in that linked article for the "unexplained" wage gap -- the unexplained residual difference between black and white earnings is due to labor market discrimination.) There are a ton of studies on this - I could cite them all day long.

So, there you go: there is plenty of evidence that blacks (and often other minorities) pay more for homes, cars, and auto insurance, than do whites, and that blacks (and other minorities) get paid less, too. I've just thrown a few sources out there; there are plenty of others.

I'm just gonna mention this - I hope it doesn't seem like I am using the "appeal to authority" fallacy, but I just want to give some context: I'm a professional economist (PhD, tenured prof, etc), and I teach in this area (though my research interests have only brushed up against some of these issues). My assertion - the one to which you responded - would not get much argument in a room full of professionals who actually study this stuff. I make that statement because I am routinely in those rooms.



Last I checked, I haven't been able to magically make myself younger. So I think that age is indeed an "immutable factor," and senior citizen discounts aren't illegal. Nor is it illegal that kids get into movie theatres for less than I pay, as well. But again, I'm not an attorney -- and I'll bet that you're not, either.
It seems apparent you misunderstood what I said. Perhaps i could have been more clear. Aging (in terms of time passed) does not vary from individual to individual, and its not a choice, so you agree with me on that point. Racism is reprehensible and policy supporting the continuation of racist ideas is unacceptable. That is my assertion, perhaps you disagree with that.

You are indeed making an appeal to authority. Perhaps you don't feel your evidence is sufficient to make your point. I too am quite aware of the studies you cite and the narrative derived from them. Correlation is not causation however, and I disagree with the conclusions drawn.
No matter the size of the room or who is in it, it is possible for any number of people to be misinformed or just of congruent opinion, regardless of what the truth may be.
Its not my intention to debate you on the integrity of the institutions of higher education in our country.
We have differing points of view about the cause of economic disparities in regards to race.
My assertion is that racist policy is unacceptable.

Last edited by nigelbison; 10-05-20 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 10-05-20, 01:53 PM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
can I get my buddy to buy a bike for me?
I'll be your buddy. I found the bike below for a 100% discount. All you gotta do is pay the shipping and finder's fee.


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Old 10-05-20, 01:55 PM
  #212  
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Well it looks like this thread has run its course, it's off topic and heading for an ugly place.

It's been interesting, now back to the bicycle world.
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