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Lugged Carbon Frames

Old 11-23-20, 08:12 AM
  #1  
Mulberry20
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Lugged Carbon Frames

They are out there, classic lugged and variations on that theme of tube-to-tube.

The Colnago C40 was perhaps one of the top five most important bikes in cycling history. It continues with the brilliant C64.

My prediction is that lugged carbon frames come back, and there are many reasons for this.

From an engineering standpoint they are superior.

Ciao
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Old 11-23-20, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mulberry20 View Post
They are out there, classic lugged and variations on that theme of tube-to-tube.

The Colnago C40 was perhaps one of the top five most important bikes in cycling history. It continues with the brilliant C64.

My prediction is that lugged carbon frames come back, and there are many reasons for this.

From an engineering standpoint they are superior.

Ciao
Less knowledge often leads to absolutist viewpoints.
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Old 11-23-20, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Less knowledge often leads to absolutist viewpoints.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You will see Specialized and Trek introduce carbon lugged frames within the next two years. Remember where you heard it.

There are advantages to this approach from a manufacturing standpoint, besides the superiority of the design.

Have you ever ridden a C Series Colnago? Or even seen one?
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Old 11-23-20, 10:24 AM
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If we do, we do; but I'm not holding my breath. One advantage of carbon as a frame material is that you can engineer it to have specific qualities in different areas. You give that up if you go to round frame tubes. The first carbon bikes were lugged round tubes and they were reported as 'whippy.' Or are you talking about massive lugs and non-round tubes?
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Old 11-23-20, 10:36 AM
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think I saw a calfee once that was lugged. not 100% sure though
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Old 11-23-20, 11:04 AM
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It is old technology so I can’t see a Specialized or a Trek making the kind of investment for such a high priced frame (C64).

I would think the major frame mfg’s are looking for advanced dampening systems and more adjustability in geometry.

For me, it is not unlike modern sports car handling and suspensions in that the driver/rider gets all the feedback and feeling attached to the road without the harshness.

John
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Old 11-23-20, 11:35 AM
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injection molding composites to a digitized profile is more likely to happen.
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Old 11-23-20, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
injection molding composites to a digitized profile is more likely to happen.
Random collection of words - makes no sense. But, it's appropriate for the thread.
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Old 11-23-20, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mulberry20 View Post
There are advantages to this approach from a manufacturing standpoint, besides the superiority of the design.
What advantages does it have? The only advantage is it's cheaper for a small time frame-builder to build a custom frame using carbon tubes and lugs. Aside from that I see no advantage and plenty of disadvantages- like the glue coming undone a few years down the road. The other problem is that when carbon comes in contact with aluminum or steel, it causes galvanic corrosion. So inherently it's not a good combo.
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Old 11-23-20, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Random collection of words - makes no sense. But, it's appropriate for the thread.
you say tomato I say potato.
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Old 11-23-20, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
injection molding composites to a digitized profile is more likely to happen.
Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Random collection of words - makes no sense. But, it's appropriate for the thread.
Actually, I don't think that is a "random collection of words." There are some developments in injection molding using cf. But I suspect this is for smaller items so far - not bike frames. And I don't know if it would allow the layups of the fibers to be tuned as it is done in cf bike frames.

And I'm guessing that "digitized profile" is just a fancy way of describing a cad/cam process, but not sure.

Even if it is a longshot, it's probably more likely than the OP's prediction.
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Old 11-23-20, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mulberry20 View Post
They are out there, classic lugged and variations on that theme of tube-to-tube.

The Colnago C40 was perhaps one of the top five most important bikes in cycling history. It continues with the brilliant C64.

My prediction is that lugged carbon frames come back, and there are many reasons for this.

From an engineering standpoint they are superior.

Ciao
The thing I dislike about most CF bikes is that they're so "big" - fat frame members, huge BBs - they just seem to occupy so much space. In contrast, lugged CF frames look like standard tubed frames, which are much more pleasing to my eye. Note that this is not a comment on how they perform - simply how they look to me.
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Old 11-23-20, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
The thing I dislike about most CF bikes is that they're so "big" - fat frame members, huge BBs - they just seem to occupy so much space. In contrast, lugged CF frames look like standard tubed frames, which are much more pleasing to my eye. Note that this is not a comment on how they perform - simply how they look to me.
that's not always the case. Some aluminum hybrids are just as if not more bulky than a CF one. IE TREK DS 8.3 vs motobecane century pro
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Old 11-23-20, 06:02 PM
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I prefer the lugged look over the molded look, however the one piece carbon frame is superior in performance to the lugged carbon frames. I have had both (still have a one piece road frame hanging around) and can tell you there is a difference in weight and BB stiffness. Oddly enough, I prefer the lateral flex of the lugged ones I had before this one, and I prefer lugged steel over anything carbon. The flex in the BB works with my riding style.
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Old 11-23-20, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mulberry20 View Post
They are out there, classic lugged and variations on that theme of tube-to-tube.

The Colnago C40 was perhaps one of the top five most important bikes in cycling history. It continues with the brilliant C64.

My prediction is that lugged carbon frames come back, and there are many reasons for this.

From an engineering standpoint they are superior.

Ciao
Huh? I don't think so!
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Old 11-24-20, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
think I saw a calfee once that was lugged. not 100% sure though
I'm pretty sure all Calfee CF frames are lugged.
I've met him a few times, he's a nice guy.
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Old 11-24-20, 10:41 AM
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I'm waiting for the OP to outline how lugged carbon frames are better. Does it make a bike faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper, or something else? Genuinely curious as to why the OP made his claim.

I'm not worried about the corrosion aspect, since there's no rule that says the lugs need to be metal. Injection molded (insert scientific name here).
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Old 11-24-20, 11:45 AM
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The Calfee style carbon lugs/ carbon tubes construction method was good for small time frame builders. But you are still left with an uncompressed epoxy glue joint and a heavy glob of epoxy. Contrast that to the modern dry carbon layup- it's extremely light because there is very little epoxy.
The future for small time builders is probably in 3-D printed open molds and dry carbon layup. I think the tube/lug method is a dead end.
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Old 11-25-20, 12:55 PM
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Calfee TetraPro ‘semi-custom’

Not sure about better today, but 20 years ago I would have absolutely agreed with you after trying Trek, Aegis, Kestrel, etc.

This one was purchased after much research and riding. The Look bikes of the day were wonderful to test ride, but even more $$$. Never got to test ride a Colnago, just as well, given the budget.
Lugged carbon, gusseted for stiffness and long term reliability. Ti BB sleeve. It has been converted to 1" threadless fork/HS, Ergo 10, with 2nd factory paint job.


ridden by G Lemond in a couple of stages.

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Old 11-25-20, 03:49 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
I'm waiting for the OP to outline how lugged carbon frames are better. Does it make a bike faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper, or something else? Genuinely curious as to why the OP made his claim.
Yes I'm curious too. It might be that if you're making a tube there are some better options available than the sort of papier maché construction used for a monocoque. I think there is some process where you kind of wind carbon fibres onto the tube as it rotates in something resembling a lathe. It might work out stronger or better. You can probably also avoid all those "voids" everyone keeps ultrasound scanning for.

I assume the lugs would be CF too in which case there should be no issues gluing the tubes into them. I think that's how Colnagos are made.

Monocoques supposedly have all the variable layup etc but do we know that's not just marketing? Everyone talks up whatever process they're using. A round tube is actually a very good shape for a lot of things including part of a bike frame.
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Old 11-25-20, 05:16 PM
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i don't mean to answer for OP, but when someone tells me = "It's better", regarding a bike - that usually means their hands, feet, or buttocks liked it more. Or some combination of same.

We all have different bodies, experiences and expectations.



Just 4 the record.
The only absolutes are:
Early Ti was noodly
Early Al was stiff and harsh (with 20-22mm race tires)
Early monocoque rode like dead wood between your legs
There are no 'ride quality' experts.
N+1 = the only road to cycling's 'true enlightenment'.
Next year's bikes will be faster, better and improved. But don't quote me about Why.
If the shifter is not on the downtube, it can't be called vintage or classic.
The ride is only as fast as the engine/transmission, the frame has almost nothing to add.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, not the shape of the thing.
My bikes are better than your bikes, if not better then more numerous, if not better or more numerous then all bets are off and I respectfully&quietly listen to you.

Last edited by Wildwood; 11-25-20 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 11-25-20, 07:00 PM
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Lugged carbon is never coming back. People are still building ti/carbon hybrid frames and tube on tube carbon frames. I want to say the last carbon lug has already been made, but all ideas get recycled.
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Old 11-25-20, 07:52 PM
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