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Petite riders

Old 01-02-21, 07:19 AM
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jmcullough101
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Petite riders

Hi all and happy new year. Starting this thread here, because I just realized there isn't any dedicated thread for petite riders whilst the struggle is real. I figure there would be others beside myself who would like to learn a thing or two from seasoned petite riders (or those who have rode alongside them), for example:
- How do you find best gears to suit the petite stature? (bike and apparel suggestions are very much welcome)
- Was there any impediment to particular style of cycling? How did you overcome it?
- Does petite stature pose problem on performance? Should we steer away from group cycling?
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Old 01-02-21, 07:42 AM
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Bikes and apparel come in all sizes. My wife,is petite, as well as another rider in our group. The group rider (might actually be more petite than my 5'4" wife) wanted a hybrid and ended up buying a "boys" hybrid. My wife rides a wsd LeMond (road) and a 16" Kona mtn.bike. A good LBS can help out with helping you with getting a bike which fits. BTW-the petite woman in our group can ride as fast/far and ride hills as good as any of us, and better than many!! If just getting into cycling, don't be thinking you have to be "average" size, all are welcome! And doesn't matter if you're a petite female or a smaller than "average" male.
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Old 01-02-21, 08:44 AM
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Sorry Freeranger, 5'4" is perfectly average. Not short outside of the WNBA.

My wife is 4'9"

The struggle is real. Her choices are mega custom, weird sized wheels (650c), or dropping the seat all the way to the frame.

I found her a super cute Ironman that she loves. I know it's too big but she says it's the best a bike has ever fit. In 40 years, nothing has fit her. She's mostly a runner.

165mm cranks. I got 50/38 for it because it was the smallest I could fit on 130bcd, and it's hard to find short cranks.

If she wanted something serious, I'd have to open the wallet I think.

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Old 01-02-21, 08:58 AM
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My wife is 5’0” and rides a 3XS Canyon. It fits her well, but gearing is the same as it would be for any larger, taller, other rider. Pedaling is about cadence and wheel speed. Match it up. If anything, her strength-to-weight ratio is amazing compared to big people. Clothing can be tricky. Black Bibs make sizes that truly fit her, so for anyone else seeking out good clothing in small sizes, give em a shot.
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Old 01-02-21, 09:17 AM
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Maybe this link will prove helpful: Gravel and Touring Bikes for Smaller Cyclists: XXS, XS, 38cm, 42cm, 44cm - CyclingAbout
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Old 01-02-21, 09:19 AM
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Under 5'9" with shorter legs, myself, so in terms of height not really a petite sized rider. But I dislike being all stretched out, always have. These days, particularly, I much prefer a more-upright riding position. And so, it's "petite" bikes for me. 15-16" 1980s type MTBs (shorter TT the better), the 45cm Rivendell Clem Smith Jr, and similar.

It's definitely a challenge to find anything that's short enough yet tall enough. Smaller frames, alone, generally don't work without much longer fork steerer tubes and riser bars. Ideally, best option for me would be a custom-fitted and -built frame. 19-20" TT, much taller head tube, riser bars, 24-26" wheels, with longer WB. Considering it. Definitely not your average off-the-shelf stuff, at the nearby bike shop.

- How do you find best gears to suit the petite stature? (bike and apparel suggestions are very much welcome)
I tend to do best with 155-160mm cranks, and due to old leg injuries gearing as low as possible is necessary (in the 12-14 g.i. range). So long as the shifting is reliable and bullet-proof, I have little trouble finding the "right" gear. Have generally done 3x drive trains on MTB type bikes. Currently building up a 2x11, which simplifies the gearing a little. For me, I simply choose the tallest gear I can do easily with the injured leg. Much lower power output than normal for most folks, so I just choose gears accordingly. When it gets too much, I walk. (Hence the 2x11 @ sub-14 g.i. on the new build.)

- Was there any impediment to particular style of cycling? How did you overcome it?
Once was, about the only thing available was the sterotypical "10 speed" bike format, back in the '70s. Always found the top tubes too long, the stretched-out riding positions too much, the wheel sizes too large (toe overlap) on the smaller sizes of bikes that roughly fit me. So, I just grit my teeth and accepted what was available, selecting one of the smaller sizes then making adjustments with stem and bars. Compromised, but it worked tolerably.

Preferred "style" of cycling, for me, is probably best exemplified by these photos:





- Does petite stature pose problem on performance? Should we steer away from group cycling?
Can't say. I've never been into "performance" cycling and have never arranged my riding position or component choices in order to maximize performance (or power down). Comfort and effective fitment given my leg issues has always been foremost. Isn't the most-aero nor the most-powerful position, I'll give you that. But it works.

That said, I've generally not had issues being able to put down enough power to maintain 20mph (on the flats). Though, these days I'm more of a 12-15mph rider. That's plenty for me. Certainly isn't enough to keep up with anyone else in a group ride, generally. But I've never worried about the group stuff.

Sized right, with a riding position in a more-athletic, more-performance oriented position, I'd think you should be as capable of putting down good power as anyone else. If you're concerned about what's "right" for you, given your needs, definitely seek out a quality, qualified fitter in your region, then get a decent fit done. I think you'll find there'll be plenty of performance with the right setup.
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Old 01-02-21, 09:39 AM
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My ex is 5’, 105 lbs. soaking wet. She does group rides all the time. We did the metric course of D2R2 (look it up) twice and even some loaded tours, including two in the Rockies. Also did Cycle Oregon one year that included climbing up to Crater Lake and riding around the Rim Road.

Just ride.
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Old 01-02-21, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rosefarts View Post
Sorry Freeranger, 5'4" is perfectly average. Not short outside of the WNBA.

My wife is 4'9"

The struggle is real. Her choices are mega custom, weird sized wheels (650c), or dropping the seat all the way to the frame.

I found her a super cute Ironman that she loves. I know it's too big but she says it's the best a bike has ever fit. In 40 years, nothing has fit her. She's mostly a runner.

165mm cranks. I got 50/38 for it because it was the smallest I could fit on 130bcd, and it's hard to find short cranks.

If she wanted something serious, I'd have to open the wallet I think.
We have struggled with the same problem of ill fit for years. My wife would say that the bike fit was okay and better than the bike she was using before. I think there is some psychology going on with petite women that is hard to get around. We are old enough that my wife started by riding on bikes that were 27” bikes. The frame was one sized and mostly fit me...i.e. probably a 23” frame. Being 5’ tall and riding a frame that is 7” or 8” too tall became “normal”. As we got into riding more and I convinced her to ride smaller bikes, they still felt too small even though they were too large. She progressed from 23” (ish) bikes to 19” bikes (49cm) to a 44cm bikes. She complained that each size change felt too small and didn’t feel quite right. Even after 30 or more years of riding, she was still comparing the bikes to that giant 27” ten speed from her youth. The fact that it took 20+ years for bicycle manufacturers to make bikes that were actually in the proper range didn’t help matters any.

She dabbled in mountain biking in the early days and I got her a Stumpjumper Sport with 24” wheels. She never really liked that one (because she doesn’t really like mountain biking) but, honestly, it was one of the best fitting bikes she has ever owned. It was a bit of a boat anchor, however, which is another problem that small riders tend to have. Smaller bikes aren’t always light.

That Centurion is likely a 19” and really is wrong for a 4’9” person by about 4” (7 to 9 cm). We solved the problem by going to a Terry Symmetry...the one with the 24” front wheel...and then an aluminum Symmetry with 650C wheels. Both were 43cm which is still a bit tall for someone 3” shorter but they are closer to the mark. Through a lot of parts jiggering and a whole lot of carbon parts and some titanium, I’ve been able to drop the weight to 20 lbs with a usable rack and a wide gear range.

_IMG4975 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
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Old 01-02-21, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jmcullough101 View Post
Hi all and happy new year. Starting this thread here, because I just realized there isn't any dedicated thread for petite riders whilst the struggle is real. I figure there would be others beside myself who would like to learn a thing or two from seasoned petite riders (or those who have rode alongside them), for example:
- How do you find best gears to suit the petite stature? (bike and apparel suggestions are very much welcome)
- Was there any impediment to particular style of cycling? How did you overcome it?
- Does petite stature pose problem on performance? Should we steer away from group cycling?
Finding equipment that fits properly can be difficult. It tends to be a long, hard road with tons of people...especially bike shop people...not understanding what the issues are. A large part of the problem is that often there aren’t bikes made for small people. A lot of small bikes aren’t small enough or they are in short supply. A 14 lb carbon bike would be perfect for a petite woman who is never going to stress the frame enough to wear it out. Unfortunately, you aren’t likely find too many 14 lb wonder bikes that fit small people. The bicycle companies have a chicken and egg problem. They don’t make frames and equipment for small riders...or for a lot of women, in general...because small people don’t buy that many bikes. Petite people don’t buy bikes because the manufacturers don’t make small bikes.

Small bikes are also conflated with the youth market so the bikes have to be cheap because kids outgrow bikes. Small adults can ride bikes from the youth market but don’t expect getting a bike that weighs much below 25 lbs and will often go over 30 lbs. That weight also has an impact on the rider’s performance. Generally, we all want super lightweight bikes. As a 200lb rider, I have a 20 lb bike which is wonderfully light and responsive. My wife has a 20lb bike that is wonderfully light and responsive but have you noticed something about the proportions? My 20 lb bike is about 10% of my weight. At 20lb my wife’s bike is closer to 20% of her body weight. I would have to ride a 40 lb bike for it to be 20% of my body weight. To get to 10% of her weight would require a bike closer to 10 lbs.

In addition to the weight proportion problem, smaller riders have less muscle mass with which to push that heavier bike around. Women, who tend to be the smaller riders, even more so. So, yes, bike weight is going to have a impact on a small rider’s performance. Added to the manufacturers that don’t make equipment that fits properly, it’s no wonder that small riders get frustrated with bicycling and don’t buy bikes.

It’s possible to get around all this but it does take work. For me and my wife, it’s taken over 30 years to get to to what we want and need. It could be better but at least it’s a lot better than it was 30 years ago.
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Old 01-02-21, 11:37 AM
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I think you need to determine your proportions... long/short legs and long/short torso, or more balanced. Just petite doesn’t work.

Next would be the type of bike you plan on riding. Riding a more race oriented road bike requires better geometry, for handling, etc., than casual riding around town.

The biggest factor for a really small frame are wheels. Getting the best head angle and wheelbase may not work with typical 700c wheels.

Depending on leg length, crank arm length may also be a problem. I’m not sure if component mfg’s really cater to shorter crank arms in all groups or just up to a point.

John
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Old 01-02-21, 01:09 PM
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Don't overlook 650c wheeled bikes. Both Trek and Cannondale made 650c wheeled road bikes from the mid 90's to the mid 2000's. These were adult bikes built with quality groupsets, not kids' bikes. Felt also made the F95 Jr 650c bike from around 2012 to about 2018(?). This is a kids' bike, but a high quality one.
With my two kids, who are 4'9" and 5'1", I bought one a 2002 Cannondale R500:

And the other one a Felt F95 Jr.


Now it is true that 650c tires are much rarer than 700c tires. But Panasonic does make a folding bead 650x28c tire and a wire bead 650x25c tire. The R500 bike is rolling on 28c tires in the picture.

As for crankset- the Origin8 BMX crankset works for double chainring application, and the Origin8 triple crankset works for either triple or double chainring. And these cranksets are available with lengths as short as 140mm.



I have the Origin8 triple crankset on the R500 bike running double 130mm chainrings shifted with 2X9 Microshift brifters. I have the Origin8 BMX crankset on my wife's bike running 2X7 drivetrain shifted with RSX brifters.
BBK in Australia makes high quality hollow axle crankset with lengths down to 145mm, for a higher end option.

As for short reach brake levers- a lot of people seem to like the Microshift short reach levers. That's what I have on both kids' bikes. But personally I think the older Sora shifter with the thumb switch has just as short a reach, and a more slim feel overall, as well as built-in screw adjustment for the reach. The Microshift lever works fine, but I find the protruding small shift paddle digging into my fingers.

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Old 01-02-21, 01:38 PM
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I deal with this trying to keep my kids on competitive equipment and it sucks. With 650b road bikes ditched 650c but never came out with a 650b bike for small frame performance, the result is a lot of small framed bikes today still have long top tubes resulting in short stems and twitchy steering which is stupid. Worse, tires like the continental GP5000 come in a 650b size but they ditched 650c only producing the grand prix and only in narrow sizes, haven't found a decent 25c width tire.
For my daughter I just rebuilt a felt FW75 in 44cm.
Since all I got was the frameset I used
26" wheels, michelin makes a decent tire for 26" and the brakes could reach. There's also more decent rims available at times for 26" though good 650c wheels do show on ebay, just tires are the crap shoot.
Shifters are microshift, like other brands you can put a wedge or different faceplate on, microshift sells the faceplates and you can also order the shifters with them installed, plates are 5-10.00 or same price pre-installed. The shifters are already shorter to begin with and are the only ones my kids have no trouble reaching in order to shift or brake. Nice thing is they offer 1x,2x and 3x in 7-10 speeds which are all meant to work with shimano and a 1x11 that works with shimano mtb ders for a gravel build. Although they're not anything amazing the weight isn't bad and they have most every option in an easy to reach package.
Cranks- someone already mentioned origin8, Miche and Stronglight also both offer junior cranks in the 140-155 range, there's no real performance loss in going shorter but it can make the fit and ride a little easier. trailcraft does the same for mtb
Bars are shimano pro or specialized since both offer a 36cm.

Smaller is doable just a pain, the resulting bike can be light, daughter's fw75 is 18.5lbs with pedals. Right now it has wheels left over from a MTB, I've got a used set of King hubs that I'll pair with a lighter rim and build with 1.8/1.6 butted spokes that should drop it below 18lb so a nice bike can be done but it takes effort.
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Old 01-02-21, 04:18 PM
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My wife is an aging 5-1 or so (used to be 5-2!), 105 lbs. She comfortably rides a XXS Jamis frame with appropriately sized stem and bars. In the past, she was satisfactorily fit on a XS Specialized Dolce. I know how to look at geometry and compare, but the bottom line is that if a bike is marketed as XXS, it will probably work. XS can work, but generally too large in some dimension.

I put together an XXS cross/gravel bike (Cannondale CAADX frame) for her, but being a cross frame, the bottom bracket is a little higher than a road bike and therefore the standover for her is a little high. She knows how to deal with it, but really it isn't ideal. The reach is OK and once riding she's comfortable. My next goal is to get her a genuine gravel bike with similar fit to her Jamis, but with wider tires.

She also likes very low gearing for the hills around here and the fact that she does't really like to stand to pedal very much. i've set up her bikes with triple in front and MTB gearing (cassette and derailleur) in back - low gear of 30X32 on the road bike and 28X34 on the heavier gravel bike. So, until recently I had to pretty much rely on building this stuff up myself because you couldn't find that low of gearing on a stock, high quality road bike, and the cross bikes that were available 10 years ago didn't have really low gearing (before the gravel thing took off, we made our own out of cross bikes).

Anyway, it can be done, especially if you are able to look at geometry charts and compare frames. I generally look at effective top tube, seat tube angle and head tube height and compare to what I've been able to make fit for her.

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Old 01-03-21, 11:22 AM
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The best fitting bike the wife has is a 1973 Colnago Super. There are no mysteries to building bikes for short people. Colnago created toe clearance and a short top tube by pairing a 71.5 head angle with a 55mm rake fork. Forty-seven years later no manufacturer is willing to build different rake forks for different size frames. With 28mm tires (also an easy fit into this dedicated race frame) she has neutral steering, 57mm of trail. My one reservation about the OP’s group ride query would be the steering problem. Medium small bikes that end up with trail figures in mid 60s will be OK in a fast group, very small bikes that have trails above 70 or even above 80 do not steer fast enough to move easily within a group. They also ride like trucks. Bike riding is and always has been fun, it has to be amazingly fun for a short rider to endure the dreck that is sold to them.

The Colnago also has standover @ 28-1/2” for a 51cm frame. And fender clearance. Even from a custom builder it would be difficult to get all this today. Of course a custom builder could, find one who will.

The one big mod to the Colnago has been 150mm cranks, which are Campagnolo and period correct. Again, good stuff for short riders has always existed. There have always been a few in the industry who genuinely care or are perhaps short themselves. Mostly the industry is asleep. Short cranks allow far more plausible hip angles, knee angles, ankle angles, allow the rider to find a power stroke for more than just a few degrees of crank rotation. The difference is huge. When the short cranks were put on the Colnago the response was immediate. The wife rode up and down the block once, came back to tell me to get short cranks for the other bike too, disappeared for an hour of bliss and we have never looked back.
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Old 01-03-21, 01:54 PM
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Btw, yep, that pink bike pictured is way too big for her. She likes occasional 15-20 mile trailer rides with the kids as a means to cross train for running that she's more serious about. And she's totally happy because it's kinda close to fitting and is totally cute with the Georgina Terry totally 80's theme.
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Old 01-03-21, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
The best fitting bike the wife has is a 1973 Colnago Super. There are no mysteries to building bikes for short people. Colnago created toe clearance and a short top tube by pairing a 71.5 head angle with a 55mm rake fork. Forty-seven years later no manufacturer is willing to build different rake forks for different size frames. With 28mm tires (also an easy fit into this dedicated race frame) she has neutral steering, 57mm of trail. My one reservation about the OP’s group ride query would be the steering problem. Medium small bikes that end up with trail figures in mid 60s will be OK in a fast group, very small bikes that have trails above 70 or even above 80 do not steer fast enough to move easily within a group. They also ride like trucks. Bike riding is and always has been fun, it has to be amazingly fun for a short rider to endure the dreck that is sold to them.

The Colnago also has standover @ 28-1/2” for a 51cm frame. And fender clearance. Even from a custom builder it would be difficult to get all this today. Of course a custom builder could, find one who will.

The one big mod to the Colnago has been 150mm cranks, which are Campagnolo and period correct. Again, good stuff for short riders has always existed. There have always been a few in the industry who genuinely care or are perhaps short themselves. Mostly the industry is asleep. Short cranks allow far more plausible hip angles, knee angles, ankle angles, allow the rider to find a power stroke for more than just a few degrees of crank rotation. The difference is huge. When the short cranks were put on the Colnago the response was immediate. The wife rode up and down the block once, came back to tell me to get short cranks for the other bike too, disappeared for an hour of bliss and we have never looked back.
You can get all nostalgic about a nearly 50 year old bike but the problem is that it is a 50 year old bike. It’s not like they are making them anymore nor that they made that many to begin with. There were only a few thousand Colnagos made in 1973. Of that few thousand only a small percentage of them were small. Many of those have gone to the great scrap yard in the sky by now. You are suggesting that jmcullough101 go looking for an even more rare bike that is part of a group of rare bikes.

Further, a 28” stand over isn’t anything that is helpful if you don’t have 28” of leg to work with. My wife is 5’ tall and has a 28” inseam. That’s not a lot of room to ride a bike with a 28.5” standover. A 51cm bike is generally too tall for someone 5’4” tall. It’s also too long in the top tube for that same person. It’s just a poor fit. It may be the most wonderful bike ever built but if it is the wrong size, that “wonderfulness” means nothing.
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Old 01-03-21, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
You can get all nostalgic about a nearly 50 year old bike but the problem is that it is a 50 year old bike. It’s not like they are making them anymore nor that they made that many to begin with. There were only a few thousand Colnagos made in 1973. Of that few thousand only a small percentage of them were small. Many of those have gone to the great scrap yard in the sky by now. You are suggesting that jmcullough101 go looking for an even more rare bike that is part of a group of rare bikes.

Further, a 28” stand over isn’t anything that is helpful if you don’t have 28” of leg to work with. My wife is 5’ tall and has a 28” inseam. That’s not a lot of room to ride a bike with a 28.5” standover. A 51cm bike is generally too tall for someone 5’4” tall. It’s also too long in the top tube for that same person. It’s just a poor fit. It may be the most wonderful bike ever built but if it is the wrong size, that “wonderfulness” means nothing.
,
Why do you want to put words in my mouth? And get all angry about something never said? I said nothing about trying to find a particular bike for a particular person. I said there is no mystery in building bikes for smaller riders.

Like most extant bikes nearly fifty years old the Colnago was barely ridden before we had it. I happen to think it says a lot about the bike business that a fifty year old bike was a great find and better suited to my wife than anything else she has had, customs included. And she is 5’3”. She clears the Colnago easily. Yes, most current 51cm bikes are way too tall for a 5’4” rider.
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Old 01-03-21, 06:27 PM
  #18  
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[QUOTE- Does petite stature pose problem on performance? Should we steer away from group cycling?[/QUOTE]

One example is Emma Pooley
Pooley on the podium after winning the 2017 Ventouxman triathlon

Personal information

Full name

Emma Jane Pooley

Born

3 October 1982 (age 38)
Wandsworth, England, United Kingdom


Height

1.57 m (5 ft 2 in)[1]

Weight

48 kg (106 lb)[1]

Team information

Discipline

Road

Rider type

Climber, time trialist

Amateur team

2005

Cambridge University CC

Professional teams

2006

Team FBUK

2007–2008

Team Specialized Designs for Women

2009–2010

Cervélo TestTeam

2011

Garmin–Cervélo

2012

AA Drink-Leontien.nl

2013

Bigla Cycling Team

2014

Lotto–Belisol Ladies

2016

Lotto–Soudal Ladies

Major wins

Stage Races

Tour de l'Aude (2010)

Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale (2009)

Giro del Trentino Alto Adige-Südtirol (2010)

Tour Cycliste Féminin International de l'Ardèche (2011, 2012)

Tour languedoc roussillon feminin (2013)

Tour de Bretagne Féminin (2008)

Single-Day Races

UCI Women's Road World Cup

Trofeo Alfredo Binda (2008, 2011)

Coupe du Monde de Montréal (2009)

GP de Plouay (2009, 2010)

La Flèche Wallonne Féminine (2010)

UCI Single Day Races

Grand Prix Elsy Jacobs (2010)

Grand Prix De Suisse (2010)

Gp Costa Etrusca - Giro Dei Comuni Rosignano-livorno (2009)

National Road Race Champion

(2010)

National Time Trial Champion

(2009, 2010, 2014)

Emma has her own web site.

Her bike now:
WyndyMilla design and build custom bicycles for the road and gravel, Custom made one by one in Italy. Designed, built, and finished in the UK.

Emma joined as a WyndyMilla ambassador in 2019 and now rides a full custom 650c Massive Attack SL.

https://www.emmapooley.net/en/about/

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Old 01-03-21, 07:02 PM
  #19  
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My wife is 5' 3" and rides a 50 cm Specialized Allez. She uses it for all types of road rides, and used it in triathlons for several years.


Her first dedicated touring bike was a 50 cm Cannondale T800 (small), which she used to ride across the U.S.


She also has a 47 cm custom built Co-Motion touring bike that turned over 25,000 miles last summer. It was a retirement present to her when she retired 10 years ago.

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Old 01-05-21, 11:04 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
,
Why do you want to put words in my mouth? And get all angry about something never said?
I put no words in your mouth nor did I “get all angry” about anything. I was just pointing out that bringing up a 50 year old bike as the example of the pinnacle of bicycle design is something of a moot point. I also don’t agree that it is the pinnacle of bicycle design. Nor do I agree that “good stuff for short riders has always existed”. Through 40 years and a couple of dozens of ill fitting bikes, I haven’t found that much good stuff for small riders.

I said nothing about trying to find a particular bike for a particular person. I said there is no mystery in building bikes for smaller riders.
Geogena Terry would disagree. My odyssey in finding small bikes would also disagree. I have had to search far and wide for parts and bicycles that fit small riders.

Look, I think it’s wonderful that your wife found a bike she liked. But most small women I’ve worked with on getting the proper bike don’t have that experience. Geogena Terry did a lot to get companies to make small bikes and bikes that fit women for a while but it seems to have worn off lately. I really wish small women riders could go into a shop and pull a bike off the wall and it would just “fit” like they do for me. But that has never been the model and probably never will.

I am mad but not necessarily at you. Small bicycles and the problems with finding them is a frustration I’ve had to deal with for ages.
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Old 01-05-21, 12:00 PM
  #21  
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my wife is just under 5'1". she bought a small Specialized Jett 29er hardtail for general riding, including some technical trails. she probably would be better off with a extra-small, but it does not seem to hold her back.

finding a road bike was more difficult. we found an old 46cm Fuji road bike with 650c tires, and we could never make it small enough to fit her with a drop bar. we swapped everything over to a flat bar setup, but it was still not ideal. we recently found a Novara Pulse, which is a kids' drop bar road bike with canti brakes and 32mm tires on 26" wheels. it fits her great! I replaced the weird drop bar with a narrow Salsa Cowbell and replaced the useless canti brakes with some mini Vs and she loves it.
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