Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Upgraded bike confusion

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Upgraded bike confusion

Old 01-24-21, 09:15 PM
  #1  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Upgraded bike confusion

I have a used 2007 Novara Randonee I bought a year or so ago that was upgraded by the previous owner and it had some minor shifting issues. I'm fairly new to bicycle maintenance but I'm pretty mechanically inclined and do all the work on my cars and motorcycle. I've learned a bit about bicycle maintenance but still have a lot to learn. I tuned the rear (9 speed) and its pretty good but could be a little better. The front (3X) is a real pain though and I haven't been able to get it to work smoothly which has caused me to just leave it on the middle chainring. Some parts need to be replaced such as the chainrings, chain, cables and possibly front derailleur.

My plan was to do some maintenance and hopefully fix the shifting issues but I'm having trouble finding a derailleur for what I believe is a Tiagra 4503 crankset. I saw most stuff now is 10 speed including Tiagra which might cause compatibility issues? It looks like it would be a lot easier to find parts if I upgraded to newer stuff but I'll need to see what's compatible. If I did have to replace multiple parts I'd consider swapping to a 2X for ease of maintenance and the fact I don't really need a 3X. FWIW, I mainly use the bicycle for fun and exercising but plan to do commuting on it as well and would like to go the cheaper route fixing it up. Any help or input is appreciated.
Nick 93 is offline  
Old 01-24-21, 09:50 PM
  #2  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 6,033
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 978 Post(s)
Liked 375 Times in 220 Posts
A well set up triple shifts very well. However, setting up the FD is more art than science. Before you give up on the triple, you might look at Park Tool's site. I'd recommend starting with the first step and not skipping any. The art is in setting the initial cable tension properly.

Park Tools website
Doug64 is offline  
Old 01-24-21, 10:19 PM
  #3  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thank you for the advice. I viewed Park Tools videos and might give it another go this week.
Nick 93 is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 10:04 AM
  #4  
masonv45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 16 Posts
On a bike that old, make sure the front Derailleur cage is not bent and is aligned correctly.
masonv45 is offline  
Likes For masonv45:
Old 01-25-21, 01:23 PM
  #5  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 6,406

Bikes: '71 Jeunet 640, '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Liked 1,011 Times in 549 Posts
The front is a friction shifter (Shimano bar end shifting)? Why would this side give you troubles? Damage to the front derailleur, or misalignment? Embedded grit or grime? Frayed inner cable binding within the housing? Did you replace the cable housings?
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 01-25-21, 02:01 PM
  #6  
Moisture
Drip, Drip.
 
Moisture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
Try replacing cable housing like mentioned, and play around with line tension/barell adjustor if applicable
Moisture is offline  
Old 02-03-21, 01:45 PM
  #7  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Wanted to post an update to this issue. I pulled the front derailleur off and it was seized up. I soaked it in soapy water for a bit and gave it a good cleaning. Its no longer seized but I think the spring is shot since it doesn't return all the way. Going to buy a new one for now and change the chain rings, etc in the future. A lot of the drivetrain components are starting to get pretty worn but they should last a little while.
Nick 93 is offline  
Old 02-03-21, 04:32 PM
  #8  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 12,684

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 142 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6069 Post(s)
Liked 950 Times in 538 Posts
Keep us posted .... and post pictures, please.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 02-03-21, 07:17 PM
  #9  
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 4,880

Bikes: Trek Domane SLR 7, Trek ALR 6, Trek CrossRip, Trek X-Caliber 8

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked 242 Times in 150 Posts
I have always had issue with the Front..... Rear, pish posh, never a problem....
__________________
Brian | 2021 Trek Domane SLR 7 | 2016 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2016 Trek X-Caliber 8 | 2014 Trek CrossRip Comp
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.







jaxgtr is offline  
Likes For jaxgtr:
Old 02-03-21, 11:12 PM
  #10  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,736

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3980 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times in 869 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick 93 View Post
Wanted to post an update to this issue. I pulled the front derailleur off and it was seized up. I soaked it in soapy water for a bit and gave it a good cleaning. Its no longer seized but I think the spring is shot since it doesn't return all the way. Going to buy a new one for now and change the chain rings, etc in the future. A lot of the drivetrain components are starting to get pretty worn but they should last a little while.
It is a mistake to think that the spring is ďworn outĒ. They donít just wear out. If the derailer isnít returning all the way, there is something stopping it from doing so. Either you have something in the derailer that is causing friction...aka dirt...or the front derailer limit screw is keeping it from returning. Lubricate it and work the derailer.

Is the derailer not returning when it is on the bike? It could be a cable issue in that case. If the cable and housing is old and/or corroded and/or gummed up, it could stop the return of the spring.

There is also the possibility that the spring has broken from the body. There is a tab on the body that the spring hits against. On some derailers, this tab can break off. But the derailer wouldnít return at all. You can move it by hand but it wonít spring back.

As to drivetrain parts wearing out, it takes a whole lot to wear out the drivetrain. Iíve got derailers that have 10,000 miles on one bike and 25,000 miles on the other and neither derailer came to me new. Chains and cassettes wear out but the rest of the drivetrain really doesnít. Chains wear out in about 3000 miles. Cassettes roughly 10,000 to 12,000 and chainrings about twice that of the cassettes. I canít really tell you how long it takes to wear out a chainring because Iíve never worn one out...even on the bike with 25,000 miles on it.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  
Likes For cyccommute:
Old 02-03-21, 11:31 PM
  #11  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,736

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3980 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times in 869 Posts
Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
I have always had issue with the Front..... Rear, pish posh, never a problem....
I donít understand why people have so many problems with front derailers. They work the same way as rear ones. Thereís a bit more in terms of adjustment and movement than the rear but not too much. The gap above the chainrings does have to be 2 to 3 mm above chainrings (I use a nickel to set the gap). This is the ďB screwĒ of the front derailer. The outer plate of the derailer needs to be parallel to the outer chainring (save that little plastic block that comes with the derailer).

For limit screws, set the lower one so that the chain just clears the derailerís inner plate when the rear is in the lowest gear. For the high limit, set it so that the chain just clears the outer plate. Donít make the cable too tight or the chain will rub on the inner plate in the low gear. Also donít make it too loose or the derailer will rub the outer plate. It needs to be just right

Chain line has to be considered but thatís only an issue if you are changing the crank set. For example, Iíve put mountain bike cranks on road bikes. That requires some moving of the chainline...usually inboard...to get it to shift. But even when I have to messing around with the chainline, I can still tune the front so that shifts flawlessly.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  
Likes For cyccommute:
Old 02-04-21, 10:06 AM
  #12  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanks for the input cyccommute, I'll go into a little further detail. I adjusted the front derailleur probably six months ago and it was shifting but not the smoothest. I wasn't doing a lot of riding due to an injury and put it off until recently. When I started riding again it wouldn't move at all and so I just left it in the middle chainring at the time. Eventually I had some free time to look into it a little more.

I took it off and cleaned it extensively. I soaked it in warm soapy water for about 30 minutes and scrubbed every part of the derailleur. I also used some degreaser to help with the cleaning process. At this point it was still seized up but I could just barely move it in my hands. I continued to clean it until I could easily move it back and forth completely. Also, I had backed out the limit screws to give more range of movement which seemed to help but who knows. I then lubricated the spring and pins with chain lube which had it moving relatively freely (keep in mind I'm not sure how difficult it should be to move).

Afterwards, I threw the derailleur on the bike and checked to see if it would move with the shift levers. Well it moved but wouldn't go down to the smallest chainring unless I gave it a light push. I figured theres probably rust or something thats causing it to bind up and thought I needed a new derailleur. I went and looked at the bike again this morning and the derailleur was frozen again. After messing with it a little and forcing it to move, it just barely moves from the shift levers.

The bike isn't the cleanest and could use a more thorough wash than what I gave it last week but the cables are relatively good condition except the fact that I frayed the end of the derailleur cable. I'll give the derailleur another cleaning this weekend and see if I can free it up some more. The shifter housings look fine as well. As far as the chainring wear goes, I thought they were supposed to be replaced when the teeth round over but maybe its not that bad. Here are some photos that may help.



Nick 93 is offline  
Old 02-04-21, 11:22 AM
  #13  
Moisture
Drip, Drip.
 
Moisture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked 103 Times in 85 Posts
First off, many thanks to cyccommute, he is an extremely knowledgeable and helpful dude.

OP, I had the exact same issue as you with my front derailleur after riding through rain and grit on a regular basis.

First thing I can suggest is to access your line either through both ends of the housing or pull the line out and oil it thoroughly. If the line is old rusty or stiff, replace line and housing.

I learned the hardway what these sort if conditions will do to my front derailleur. Since then, I've been regularly applying a small amount of oil onto each pivot point of the derailleur , the spring inside, and regularly scrubbing the body down with a wire brush thoroughly.

Just keep adding oil every ride or so. Make sure you push the body in and out as you apply oil to really get it into the pivots. It will recentre properly.
Moisture is offline  
Likes For Moisture:
Old 02-04-21, 11:32 AM
  #14  
mack_turtle
n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,397

Bikes: Surly Karate Monkey, Twin Six Standard Rando

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked 455 Times in 271 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick 93 View Post
the middle chainring is clocked incorrectly. that might not be the source of your problems, but it's not helping. anywhere that a chainring has a tab like the one seen here, the tabs should line up behind the crank arm.

otherwise, getting the FD cage at just the right height and angle is critical. then limit screws, then cable tension.

IME, you'll get better braking performance if you replace the cable stop that's attached above the headset with one that bolts to the crown of the fork. the brake pads that come with those brakes are also atrocious, so some MTB style pads that are longer and curved to match the wheel shape should work better Kool Stop makes some great ones for this purpose.
mack_turtle is offline  
Likes For mack_turtle:
Old 02-04-21, 11:33 AM
  #15  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,894

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1142 Post(s)
Liked 1,574 Times in 643 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick 93 View Post
I took it off and cleaned it extensively. I soaked it in warm soapy water for about 30 minutes and scrubbed every part of the derailleur. I also used some degreaser to help with the cleaning process. At this point it was still seized up but I could just barely move it in my hands. I continued to clean it until I could easily move it back and forth completely. Also, I had backed out the limit screws to give more range of movement which seemed to help but who knows. I then lubricated the spring and pins with chain lube which had it moving relatively freely (keep in mind I'm not sure how difficult it should be to move).
Know anyone with an ultrasonic cleaner?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 02-04-21, 11:40 AM
  #16  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 23,736

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, an orange one and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3980 Post(s)
Liked 1,405 Times in 869 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick 93 View Post
Thanks for the input cyccommute, I'll go into a little further detail. I adjusted the front derailleur probably six months ago and it was shifting but not the smoothest. I wasn't doing a lot of riding due to an injury and put it off until recently. When I started riding again it wouldn't move at all and so I just left it in the middle chainring at the time. Eventually I had some free time to look into it a little more.

I took it off and cleaned it extensively. I soaked it in warm soapy water for about 30 minutes and scrubbed every part of the derailleur. I also used some degreaser to help with the cleaning process. At this point it was still seized up but I could just barely move it in my hands. I continued to clean it until I could easily move it back and forth completely. Also, I had backed out the limit screws to give more range of movement which seemed to help but who knows. I then lubricated the spring and pins with chain lube which had it moving relatively freely (keep in mind I'm not sure how difficult it should be to move).

Afterwards, I threw the derailleur on the bike and checked to see if it would move with the shift levers. Well it moved but wouldn't go down to the smallest chainring unless I gave it a light push. I figured theres probably rust or something thats causing it to bind up and thought I needed a new derailleur. I went and looked at the bike again this morning and the derailleur was frozen again. After messing with it a little and forcing it to move, it just barely moves from the shift levers.

The bike isn't the cleanest and could use a more thorough wash than what I gave it last week but the cables are relatively good condition except the fact that I frayed the end of the derailleur cable. I'll give the derailleur another cleaning this weekend and see if I can free it up some more. The shifter housings look fine as well. As far as the chainring wear goes, I thought they were supposed to be replaced when the teeth round over but maybe its not that bad. Here are some photos that may help.
The spring on a derailer is fairly stiff. It will take some force to get the derailer to move by hand. It sounds like you got it to move well off the bike so I doubt that it is a derailer problem. It sounds like it’s more of a cable problem. The housing might have dirt in it. The rods in the housing might have slipped. I suspect that you might have a kink in your cable under the housing. That can cause the cable to not move smoothly in the cable housing.

You can check the rods and for a cable kink by shifting into the highest gear and then shifting without spinning the crank. This relaxes the tension and allows you to pull the cable housing out of the frame so that you can inspect it. What you are looking for in terms of the rods breaking loose is this

IMG_1361 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Notice the wire sticking out of the ferrule? That will jam the cable. Here’s what the housing looks like without the ferrule.

IMG_1362 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

This picture also shows another problem that I see with a lot of housing. The plastic is cut back away from the end. This can cause the rods to compress around the inner cable and result in drag. I see this on almost all OEM cabling and I don’t know why they do it. I cut them square and that solves that issue.

If nothing else, just replace the housing and inner cable. It’s fairly cheap. You could even change color of your cable. White would really pop on your bike

The teeth on your crank looks okay. They are a little worn but not excessively. The shape of the teeth can vary by design. It helps make the shifting easier and quicker. Notice how the teeth and the troughs around the pins are different from the other teeth in your picture. That helps pick up the chain during the shift.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.

Last edited by cyccommute; 02-04-21 at 11:53 AM.
cyccommute is offline  
Likes For cyccommute:
Old 02-04-21, 12:43 PM
  #17  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
I can't thank you guys enough for all the help and advice. Thank you all for the support. I'll go ahead and take a look at the cables and housings to see if thats where I'm having problems. The photos are going to be a great help. Its also reassuring knowing my chainring is not excessively worn. Either way I'll be sure to keep you guys updated.

Originally Posted by Moisture
OP, I had the exact same issue as you with my front derailleur after riding through rain and grit on a regular basis.
The previous owner used this as a cyclocross bike and then did a ton of commuting in the DC area rain or shine. I'm sure thats a contributing factor in the least.

Originally Posted by mack_turtle
the middle chainring is clocked incorrectly
Good to know. I assume this would be worth fixing if it can cause issues? Probably a good idea to do a more thorough cleaning as well. I appreciate the advice on the brakes and they aren't very good at stopping so I'll definitely check into this more.
Nick 93 is offline  
Old 02-04-21, 12:48 PM
  #18  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,452

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1525 Post(s)
Liked 1,039 Times in 712 Posts
When I'm working on severely neglected bikes with things like derailleurs rusted and frozen I'm lubing and working back & forth with a penetrating oil like Kroil or PB Blaster.
dedhed is offline  
Old 02-04-21, 12:50 PM
  #19  
mack_turtle
n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,397

Bikes: Surly Karate Monkey, Twin Six Standard Rando

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked 455 Times in 271 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick 93 View Post
Good to know. I assume this would be worth fixing if it can cause issues?
realigning the chainrings is a pretty easy job. just a bit time consuming because there are five bolts on the two bigger rings and another five on the small ring. you might need to remove all three to get it right. those steel chainring bolts take a surprising 12Nm to get them to really stay put. a little light threadlocker is a good idea there as well.
mack_turtle is offline  
Likes For mack_turtle:
Old 03-26-21, 08:59 AM
  #20  
Nick 93
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 28

Bikes: 2007 Novara Randonee, 2020 Cannondale Optima Claris, 1993 Raleigh RT500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Hey guys sorry for the super late update but I've been pretty busy with work. I changed out the cables about two weeks ago and also cleaned the front derailleur again. It had become stiff (stuck) again so I used a heat gun/torch and wd 40 and its been perfect since. The heat really helped get in between the spring coils and get everything really loosened up. The cables also helped so much specifically the new housings. Upon further inspection the old housings were in much worse shape than I had initially thought. I appreciate all the help and I'm glad to have it shifting the way it should again!
Nick 93 is offline  
Likes For Nick 93:
Old 03-26-21, 09:25 AM
  #21  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 6,406

Bikes: '71 Jeunet 640, '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Liked 1,011 Times in 549 Posts
I love a happy ending.
Phil_gretz is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.