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Daughter wants to bike home from school on the left side sidewalk.

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Daughter wants to bike home from school on the left side sidewalk.

Old 03-19-21, 09:23 AM
  #26  
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walk the bike for that section then resume riding when it's safe
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Old 03-19-21, 10:37 AM
  #27  
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In my state it's perfectly legal for anyone 13 and under to ride on any sidewalk they please. As an adult I'm not permitted (class C misdemeaner). If she wants to use the sidewalk let her.
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Old 03-19-21, 12:36 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
If one is slowly huffing up the hill and able to continue at a slow even pace, you might almost have a point, provided that local law does not prohibit it (eg, rider age or out-of-business-district type exceptions).

However the OP described having to leave the sidewalk in proper deference to pedestrians, and instead salmon the bike lane. Salmoning the lane is right out, as it puts those riding legally and properly at risk - is the salmon going to veer into the opposing traffic lane, or being a kid and climbing a hill, is she going to expect the person using the lane properly to do so?
How fast do you think the young girl is going, up 4-5% average grade for a mile that she only recently is able to even make it? What does "even pace" have to do with anything, when it's 4-7 mph? As he describes it, there is literally no safety issue here. There is very little difference in walking, running or riding even in the bike lane when they're all about the same speed.
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Old 03-19-21, 12:42 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
As he describes it, there is literally no safety issue here.
You come to that false conclusion only by persistently ignoring what was pointed out in the very text of my post that you quoted yourself

Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Originally Posted by UniChris
However the OP described having to leave the sidewalk in proper deference to pedestrians, and instead salmon the bike lane.
In fact there is a safety issue: salmoning the bike lane
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Old 03-19-21, 01:26 PM
  #30  
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From a parenting point of view, perhaps you could discuss all the pros and cons, without the goal of reaching a predetermined 'solution.' Listen to her point of view, let her lay out the problems with each side. Let her also bring up the relative magnitudes of the consequences, and rarebit possible consequences, associated with each choice.
I once read that the hardest part of parenting is teaching a child to ride a bicycle. They need both support and freedom; the realization that they will always need that hits hard.
Good luck.
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Old 03-19-21, 01:37 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
You come to that false conclusion only by persistently ignoring what was pointed out in the very text of my post that you quoted yourself



In fact there is a safety issue: salmoning the bike lane
Disregarded, not ignored. Because it makes only a jingoistic sort of sense.

ē Municipal laws about children on sidewalks most probably allow it. And if not, have no impact on her safety
ē Labelling something "Salmoning" doesn't make it unsafe. Someone walking on the left side is more safe than he is walking on the right side. Someone jogging on the left side is more safe than he is jogging on the right side. They are both "salmoning".

You really need to question why is "salmoning" unsafe for bikes and not runners, and then you'll realize that it's almost entirely due to the higher speed of the bike. Superficially, there's also a minor difference that a pedestrian can dodge more nimbly, but again if you get past the superficial it's again more about the speed. At slow speed, it's almost as easy to dodge from the bike as it is for a pedestrian.
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Old 03-19-21, 01:44 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Municipal laws about children on sidewalks most probably allow it. And if not, have no impact on her safety
For the umpteenth time, I was not talking about the sidewalk!

Labelling something "Salmoning" doesn't make it unsafe. Someone walking on the left side is more safe than he is walking on the right side. Someone jogging on the left side is more safe than he is jogging on the right side. They are both "salmoning".
Neither walking nor jogging in the bike lane is legal at all:

Calfirnia Vehicle Code 21966: "No pedestrian shall proceed along a bicycle path or lane where there is an adjacent adequate pedestrian facility." - and we know there is a sidewalk, because that's what the OP and daughter initially asked about.


You really need to question why is "salmoning" unsafe for bikes and not runners
False premise: in actuality it's illegal for runners to use the bike lane in either direction.


The issue, in case you're still trying to ignore it is illegally salmoning the bike lane

Last edited by UniChris; 03-19-21 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 03-19-21, 02:05 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
For the umpteenth time, I was not talking about the sidewalk!
Don't be dense - it doesn't matter whether you're talking statutes about sidewalk or bike lane. The statute doesn't make it any safer or less safe.

Calfirnia Vehicle Code 21966: "No pedestrian shall proceed along a bicycle path or lane where there is an adjacent adequate pedestrian facility." -
Who cares? We're talking about safety and I 100% guarantee you that there are salmon bikes and runners in the bike lane.
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Old 03-19-21, 02:11 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Who cares? We're talking about safety and I 100% guarantee you that there are salmon bikes and runners in the bike lane.
You can't point to other's lawbreaking behavior in the bike lane to justify a cyclist's - there are drivers, cops eating donuts, and fullsize fuel motorcycles in bike lanes, too.

To use your own words but use them correctly, "Don't be dense" : You can't use illegal presence of a runner to justify bike lane salmoning.

Last edited by UniChris; 03-19-21 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 03-19-21, 03:40 PM
  #35  
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What response do you want from this thread?

You have been riding the same way on the same sidewalk for the last 5 years, so you really don’t have any valid argument for a teenager.

And the fact that you don’t have a problem riding the wrong way in and out of a bike lane is just going to make it more difficult.

That train left the station a long time ago.

John
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Old 03-19-21, 03:48 PM
  #36  
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Thereís an A&S forum for that.
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Old 03-19-21, 04:01 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Someone jogging on the left side is more safe than he is jogging on the right side. They are both "salmoning".

You really need to question why is "salmoning" unsafe for bikes and not runners,
That's not my experience. Have had episodes of cars exiting parking lot driveways almost taking me out while running on the left sidewalk. So I tried to quit doing it. But in OPs situation it would depend for me on how many places there were for traffic to enter from the left.

scott s.
.
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Old 03-19-21, 04:11 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by burritos View Post
On my days off I'll bike with my daughter to school. Been doing this since she was in 2nd grade, she's now in 6th grade. It's always been a fun bonding period. On the way home there is a stretch of road where it's uphill for about a mile. Average is about 3-4% grade. Nothing crazy but I concede that it takes a decent effort for a 55 pounder biking a 20 lb bike. Initially she'd have to stop a few times, but as she has grown and built up endurance she can do the whole length. Her issue is that she heats up and the left side of the street has all the trees and shading that still makes the trip home enjoyable for her. For whatever reason over the years, foot traffic has increased. So 50% of the time we have get off the sidewalk(it's narrow), ride through the landscape that separates the sidewalk and the street, and then start salmoning up the wrong side of the road. Speed limit is 35 mph but cars go down that road at around 50mph. There's a bike lane, but the road is one lane and feels narrowish especially 50mph cars going by you downhill. Not the safest situation especially if another bike comes down the pike. If we go up the left side, everything is hunky dory. If I force the issue about going up the right side(explaining the safety issue), the enjoyable bike ride home becomes snowflake/gen z drama torture. Force the issue right. I mean better to be hated than to be dead right?
Children have a very poor attention span for safety matters and it probably isn't a good idea to try and overcome that. So if you are not riding with her it is not a bad idea to ride on the sidewalk. And to walk bicycles across main intersections. I was riding back from a ride and a couple of kids pulled out into the street with me and were pulling wheelies and riding on the rear wheel. Now this happened to be a fairly dead street but they were being so careless that had a car come around the corner with the sort of speed they carry all the time in California they could have been hit. So, a 6th grader on the sidewalk should only be taught that other people should have room as well.
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Old 03-19-21, 04:14 PM
  #39  
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if it were me and my kid, I'd stay on the sidewalk, dismount/walk when crowded, and get back on when able. She's 11. I wouldn't want her in the street
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Old 03-20-21, 09:27 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by scott967 View Post
That's not my experience. Have had episodes of cars exiting parking lot driveways almost taking me out while running on the left sidewalk. So I tried to quit doing it. But in OPs situation it would depend for me on how many places there were for traffic to enter from the left.

scott s.
.
I'll run on either side, but in this case I agree with conventional wisdom and much prefer the left side. I can see the cars turning right out of the driveways and cross streets, and I can't when I'm on the right side. IME there is no difference in how they react to runners on their right (when they're stopped and about to turn right), whether running towards them or away.

The problem with a bike is they misjudge the speed when they take the first look and disregard you as if you are a pedestrian. Too far away to matter they think, if they go quickly.

On the sidewalk you have to be extra careful of the cars stopped at cross-streets. I'd ask her to dismount when pedestrians are approaching or veer off inside on the grass if that's available. When she understands that I'd have zero qualms about her riding there.
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Old 03-20-21, 09:38 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I'll run on either side, but in this case I agree with conventional wisdom and much prefer the left side. I can see the cars turning right out of the driveways and cross streets, and I can't when I'm on the right side.
Actually you can see cars turning right regardless which side of the street you are on. No one cares about right turners on the other side of the street.

The only difference is the cars are turning into you when you are on the left side of the road and away from you on the right side.

John
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Old 03-20-21, 10:56 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Contra-traffic is unsafe at intersections because of the higher speeds of the bike. You're going up at jogging speed, or close to walking speed, and that isn't going trigger the bad judgment of drivers that we all know and fear. It could be safer for the same reasons that runners prefer the left side
Iím going to respectfully disagree here. My regular running route puts me on the left sidewalk, and I have to be very careful about cross-street motorists turning right who donít bother to look right before stomping the gas. Pedestrians, runners, cyclists on the sidewalk, it doesnít matter how slow (or fast) because drivers donít look. At all.
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Old 03-20-21, 12:07 PM
  #43  
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RiceAway makes an excellent point about children's attention spans. Another factor is almost all adults drive, and thus have an almost subliminal sense of what a car is going to do. Children lack this, thus cars have a greater chance of surprising them, with potentially grave results.
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Old 03-20-21, 04:20 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Actually you can see cars turning right regardless which side of the street you are on. No one cares about right turners on the other side of the street.

The only difference is the cars are turning into you when you are on the left side of the road and away from you on the right side.

John
It's not a small thing. The driver in this car is going to be looking left when he starts his turn. They almost all do it. He may or may not have noticed me there in the bike lane.

When I'm running away from the car I cant see him and don't know what he's doing. Running towards him, I can see what's happening.

Seeing all of the traffic coming towards you is why it's recommended to run against traffic. Almost universally. But the traffic turning right, into me, while essentially not looking is the most common danger that I usually see.


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Old 03-20-21, 04:24 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
me there in the bike lane.

When I'm running

Don't

run

in

the

bike

lane
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Old 03-20-21, 04:40 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
It's not a small thing. The driver in this car is going to be looking left when he starts his turn. They almost all do it. He may or may not have noticed me there in the bike lane.

When I'm running away from the car I cant see him and don't know what he's doing. Running towards him, I can see what's happening.

Seeing all of the traffic coming towards you is why it's recommended to run against traffic. Almost universally. But the traffic turning right, into me, while essentially not looking is the most common danger that I usually see.


Thanks for agreeing that riding on the left, toward traffic, is more dangerous.

John
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Old 03-20-21, 08:03 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Don't

run

in

the

bike

lane
You obviously don't know anything about the laws here in Georgia, let alone the "bike lanes" so you can go pound sand.
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Old 03-20-21, 08:12 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
You obviously don't know anything about the laws here in Georgia
Rather ironic as your drawing shows you in violation of 40-6-96 (b)
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Old 03-21-21, 08:10 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Rather ironic as your drawing shows you in violation of 40-6-96 (b)
The drawing shows a stick figure to illustrate a street position.

And the real irony is, that's not actually a bike lane. Now bug off, random internet person who doesn't understand what he's giving orders about.

And you're way off topic, random internet person. You're crapping on Op's thread, and no one cares about your ego. Pound sand and bug off should be the end of it.

Last edited by wphamilton; 03-21-21 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 03-21-21, 08:32 AM
  #50  
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One does not get to introduce off topic claims about running into a cycling thread and then give insulting orders to the person who points out that the behaviors used as justification is itself prohibited.

Georgia 40-6-96 (b) covers the entire roadway surface.

Hopefully we can now dispense with the entire flawed argument based on illegal runner behavior and return to that of proper cyclist behavior.

Last edited by UniChris; 03-21-21 at 08:49 AM.
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