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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

Old 04-05-21, 12:33 PM
  #126  
MRT2
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Originally Posted by afm199 View Post
Back in 2014 I bought a Bike Nashbar AL1, which really was a great deal. It had mostly Sora components, ok wheels and brakes. I still own the slightly pork frameset, which is probably a Cannondale, and have "upgraded" to Ultegra brakes, real derailleur, and a carbon seat post.

Last month the left Sora shifter bit the dust, and I was not happy. A new one is hard to find and expensive, and I don't trust the lower level below Sora, after this experience I don't trust Sora.

And lo and behold, 9 speed triple left brifters just aren't there. I ended up buying 105 10 speed left, which works fine and is much better than the Sora.

So I have a $400 bike with $800 worth of upgrades that weighs 21 pounds, lol. I forgot to mention the carbon wheels. Still and all, it's ridden either in the hills or the city, and I love it.

I always check Craigslist for used bikes. I bought my Trek Cronos there for a good price and it's a great bike. The stuff on the showroom floor today for $400-$500 is not worth it, the used bikes can be.
Good that you found a 105 to replace your dead shifter. I believe that Microshift makes brifters that are compatible with Shimano, if someone else finds themselves in need of a replacement and can't find a Shimano for a reasonable price.
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Old 04-05-21, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Good that you found a 105 to replace your dead shifter. I believe that Microshift makes brifters that are compatible with Shimano, if someone else finds themselves in need of a replacement and can't find a Shimano for a reasonable price.
Thanks, yes they do. The 105 was a hefty $125. The microshift I just don't trust, I expect that they are fine for casual riding, but I probably will beat this bike up for years and really want something that lasts.
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Old 04-05-21, 12:46 PM
  #128  
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the actual cost of the parts might be around the same price as before, but when the "FREE" shipping is added, that price hike might create the gouge.
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Old 04-05-21, 07:08 PM
  #129  
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Cycling doesnt have to be expensive. But you've all bought into carbon fiber frames, electronic shifting, disc brakes, computer aides, etc, etc. Steel tubing is time tested and will last your lifetime. A cable attached to a lever moves my derailleurs. Weinmann centerpull rim brakes stop me just fine. If I really want to know, I can calculate my speed by counting rpms. To enjoy cycling you dont need the latest gizmo's. I participate in group rides on a 50 year old entry level plain gauge hi-tensile steel framed bike with plastic derailleurs. I dont have any problem keeping up with the pace. But if you want to be a gear head and spend, spend, spend thats your option not a requirement to enjoy the sport.
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Old 04-05-21, 08:00 PM
  #130  
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3 words: Tariffs, COVID, demand.

layer 2: exchange rates, rising Chinese middle class.

expect to see prices drop when disc tooling costs are paid for, when demand is lower, and when bikes are manufactured in Vietnam or wherever else there is cheaper labour.
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Old 04-05-21, 09:19 PM
  #131  
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+1 to afm199's comments. I have a 3x9 road bike. I had to change the right shifter, and wanted to change the left one. The right one was easy - a Sora shifter works perfectly. The left is impossible - the Sora has too high a ratio. There's no shifter in the world that will work.

Ok, fine, I'll buy a new bike. I can spend any amount of money, but I want a triple up front and I want it to weigh 20#, like my current bike. Such a bike doesn't exist. I can only get one or the other.

I don't know who thought we wanted 1x's, with 17% between each gear and cross-gearing at the extremes. The industry has gone way backwards. I hope it unwedges itself some day.
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Old 04-05-21, 10:08 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Agreed. Look at the auto industry. You cant even touch a decent car for less than $30k now. I feel so sorry for all of the younger people who are forking over a weeks pay or more per month just to support their transportation costs. Not exactly apples-to-apples alignment with the thread topic, but I guess I'm trying to illustrate that this sort of thing is happening in every market. Companies are instilling value-added (supposedly) to their products in order to gain more revenue. In cars again, do we really need all of the electronic garbage they feed us? Do we need lane departure sensing and all that? I don't feel like we do, but at the same time, its becoming hard to find a car that doesn't have it. Manufacturers are adding disc brakes to their bikes and charging more for them. See the pattern repeating itself? They know that if you want to be a-peddlin', then you'll be a-payin'.
Go buy a Mazda3 for 22k new off the showroom floor. Look at the crash tests, gas mileage, longevity and liveliness and show me something from 40 years ago that is close to it in all around quality for an equivalent cost based on inflation. There's a reason why I bought a 2017 for 19k new, and why when a jeep grand cherokee rear ended it at 65mph at a freeway offramp my daughter and I walked out of the car and without any injuries. I could have bought a new Mazda MX5 for 24k, would have even payed 28k if they'd had it in red, had to settle for a current generation with 35k miles for 18k just to get the color I wanted. Cars aren't that bad depending on what you look at. Trucks on the other hand, that's so overpriced and oversold BS but their cost is a demand issue that allows an inflated price.

Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
I gave real world examples of how you get less quality for more money today as compared with just 5 years ago.
But not good ones. In 1999 a trek 1200 sold for 900.00 new with RSX and was a basic, uninspiring aluminum frame road bike. 2 years ago we got my wife a CAADX tiagra for 1100, on sale from 1200. The few hundred difference meant much better wheels, particularly the rims, the shifting is loads better, the frame is much nicer and rides and handles better. the Carbon fork is better then the old aluminum fork, threadless vs threaded, etc. Likewise I bought a Raleigh m55 in 97 or 98 for the steep price of 400.00. My kids 2 years ago got new 24" cannondale mtbs for 410.00. Their front shocks aren't that great but still loads better then the 30mm travel chunk of nonsense on that m55. Their threadless system is much better then the quill stem that would twist on me in a crash. The 7sp grip shift didn't work nearly as well as the 8 speed theirs came with. The single wall rims didn't hold up to me the way their double wall rims are doing and their disk brakes stop way better. Not to mention the weight difference that nice, steel frame had. I've looked at 500.00 bikes for them since they keep growing, it'll be a next spring item, and for 5-600.00 their new mtbs will be much more trail worthy then that raleigh ever was. The raleigh m400 I bought two years later was really nice but still not comparable to a 900.00 trek I looked at recently.

At the extreme end, I will agree bikes have become overpriced beyond reason. 4k for a trek 5900 seemed high to me, 12k for a specialized today seems like the narrow edge of insanity. But at the entry level the quality of the parts have all improved significantly and the bikes, dollar for dollar are way better.
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Old 04-06-21, 04:27 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Go buy a Mazda3 for 22k new off the showroom floor.
Several people have commented on my $30k cars comment. Apparently that ruffled some feathers. Also apparently there is disparity in everyone's idea of what constitutes a decent car. Also, reading comprehension seems to be a rarity in this modern world of ours. If you look at my original post, I said "decent car." Perhaps I should have increased the size of the text, bolded it, italicized the text, and underlined it. You know, for emphasis.

A Mazda 3 may be a worthy car for the $22k price tag, but it is and always will be the bottom of Mazda's lineup. Its an entry level car or a student car. Simply put, its an economy compact car, so probably not a good argument in this case.

We like CRVs, and we've had several in the last 25 years. They seem to be a decent combination of size, snow-handling, capabilities, conveniences, and luxury. If you want one, they are hard to find up here without having some sort of value-added package, which of course adds to the price. Here is a good example of a couple cars in my area: 2020 CRV As you can plainly see, they roll off the lot at $30k+.
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Old 04-06-21, 05:22 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Also, reading comprehension seems to be a rarity in this modern world of ours. If you look at my original post, I said "decent car."
It's not the fault of reading comprehension when the writing is vague and open to a wide range of interpretation. Blame yourself.
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Old 04-06-21, 05:31 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It's not the fault of reading comprehension when the writing is vague and open to a wide range of interpretation. Blame yourself.

This^^^

The guy makes a ill-thought out comment and then digs himself deeper by blaming everyone else for it.

Class act.
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Old 04-06-21, 05:40 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
In 1965, my local bike store sold the top-of-the-line all-Campy-Record Legnano, which was functionally fully equivalent to the 1980 Masi Gran Criterium, for $150. At more than 10 times the price only 15 years later, the Masi at $1800 was a far more outrageous ripoff than the modern bike versus the Masi.

Sure, the Masi would be fun to ride around on today, if you're not planning on racing. I loved my 1982 Campy Super Record-equipped Bianchi Super Corsa when I was racing back then. Nostalgia is a powerful emotion. But any $5,700 modern racing bike is light years beyond from the Masi in technology and performance. In fact, we can buy any number of modern bikes for less than half that price that offer most of the performance advantages of the $5,700 bike.
When you remember the double-digit inflation of the late 70's, it wasn't just bikes which saw their prices skyrocket over 15 years. In 1980 I could have bought any number of racing bikes for under $1000, but the Masi and others were the cream of the industry in those days. I made do with a used Schwinn Paramount, which many might argue as being better than a Masi of that era, but which cost me $500 hard-earned dollars.

Few of those reading this forum actually race, most ride for fitness, so performance advantages are largely irrelevant. In my neighborhood here in Tokyo, there are numerous exotic or "supercars," most of which have never been driven faster than 90 mph. My neighbor just bought one of those hideous new Lamborghini SUVs for almost $300,000 (there's some inflation for you), and he uses it to take his kids to school and visit the local golf driving range. There are a number of cyclists here in Tokyo who also own $10k bicycles, and though these will get around most parts of the city more quickly than a Lamborghini SUV, they won't be that much faster than a much less expensive bike.
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Old 04-06-21, 06:25 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It's not the fault of reading comprehension when the writing is vague and open to a wide range of interpretation. Blame yourself.
*sigh* another reason to stay away from GD.
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Old 04-06-21, 06:25 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by 50PlusCycling View Post
When you remember the double-digit inflation of the late 70's, it wasn't just bikes which saw their prices skyrocket over 15 years. In 1980 I could have bought any number of racing bikes for under $1000, but the Masi and others were the cream of the industry in those days. I made do with a used Schwinn Paramount, which many might argue as being better than a Masi of that era, but which cost me $500 hard-earned dollars.

Few of those reading this forum actually race, most ride for fitness, so performance advantages are largely irrelevant. In my neighborhood here in Tokyo, there are numerous exotic or "supercars," most of which have never been driven faster than 90 mph. My neighbor just bought one of those hideous new Lamborghini SUVs for almost $300,000 (there's some inflation for you), and he uses it to take his kids to school and visit the local golf driving range. There are a number of cyclists here in Tokyo who also own $10k bicycles, and though these will get around most parts of the city more quickly than a Lamborghini SUV, they won't be that much faster than a much less expensive bike.

Folks around here tend to buy 3,500 sqft homes for an Murican family size of 3 or 4, when back before the 90s came, 1,200 sqft was more than enough for a family of 4 or 5. The cost has went all over the place for the housing market in the USdeA, but hardly ever has it went the direction of down. In regards to what folks do with there money, do i care what others do with that money? Nope. As long as they don't try to dictate/control/manipulate mine, then no serious problem exists.

If the FREE shipping & associated "handling" costs were taken away from the goods being sold, I'd wonder what the real price might be. Shipping seems to be the hidden driver of most inflation for goods.
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Old 04-06-21, 06:38 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Several people have commented on my $30k cars comment. Apparently that ruffled some feathers. Also apparently there is disparity in everyone's idea of what constitutes a decent car. Also, reading comprehension seems to be a rarity in this modern world of ours. If you look at my original post, I said "decent car." Perhaps I should have increased the size of the text, bolded it, italicized the text, and underlined it. You know, for emphasis.

A Mazda 3 may be a worthy car for the $22k price tag, but it is and always will be the bottom of Mazda's lineup. Its an entry level car or a student car. Simply put, its an economy compact car, so probably not a good argument in this case.

.
How about the Mazda 6 for 25K, like the others I mentioned earlier (Camry, Accord, Malibu, etc)?

You're right, though, everyone has a different idea about what is a decent car, but I think for many of us, we're taking "car" literally. The CRV isn't a car, it's an SUV.
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Old 04-06-21, 07:02 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
*sigh* another reason to stay away from GD.
I assume that you're referring to your inability to articulate points? Yeah, agreed.
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Old 04-06-21, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
*sigh* another reason to stay away from GD.
Digging the hole deeper.

BTW, using your CR-V example: I bought an AWD LX in 2003, and was recently looked at the new LX AWD model. In real dollars (adjusted for inflation) they cost roughly the same (if anything the 2021 is actually cheaper). And the 2021 has waaaaaaay more features that the 2003 version (ABS, better AWD system, better gas mileage, more powerful engine, safety sensors, backup camera....)

So not only is your use of "decent" rather inarticulate (I agree with those claiming that plenty of current cars under $30K count as "decent"), but the underlying implication that cars have gotten more expensive is also not even true, at least not in real dollars.
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Old 04-06-21, 07:48 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Go buy a Mazda3 for 22k new off the showroom floor. Look at the crash tests, gas mileage, longevity and liveliness and show me something from 40 years ago that is close to it in all around quality for an equivalent cost based on inflation. There's a reason why I bought a 2017 for 19k new, and why when a jeep grand cherokee rear ended it at 65mph at a freeway offramp my daughter and I walked out of the car and without any injuries. I could have bought a new Mazda MX5 for 24k, would have even payed 28k if they'd had it in red, had to settle for a current generation with 35k miles for 18k just to get the color I wanted. Cars aren't that bad depending on what you look at. Trucks on the other hand, that's so overpriced and oversold BS but their cost is a demand issue that allows an inflated price.


But not good ones. In 1999 a trek 1200 sold for 900.00 new with RSX and was a basic, uninspiring aluminum frame road bike. 2 years ago we got my wife a CAADX tiagra for 1100, on sale from 1200. The few hundred difference meant much better wheels, particularly the rims, the shifting is loads better, the frame is much nicer and rides and handles better. the Carbon fork is better then the old aluminum fork, threadless vs threaded, etc. Likewise I bought a Raleigh m55 in 97 or 98 for the steep price of 400.00. My kids 2 years ago got new 24" cannondale mtbs for 410.00. Their front shocks aren't that great but still loads better then the 30mm travel chunk of nonsense on that m55. Their threadless system is much better then the quill stem that would twist on me in a crash. The 7sp grip shift didn't work nearly as well as the 8 speed theirs came with. The single wall rims didn't hold up to me the way their double wall rims are doing and their disk brakes stop way better. Not to mention the weight difference that nice, steel frame had. I've looked at 500.00 bikes for them since they keep growing, it'll be a next spring item, and for 5-600.00 their new mtbs will be much more trail worthy then that raleigh ever was. The raleigh m400 I bought two years later was really nice but still not comparable to a 900.00 trek I looked at recently.

At the extreme end, I will agree bikes have become overpriced beyond reason. 4k for a trek 5900 seemed high to me, 12k for a specialized today seems like the narrow edge of insanity. But at the entry level the quality of the parts have all improved significantly and the bikes, dollar for dollar are way better.
Check the prices now. Willing to bet you can't get that CADX Tiagra on sale for $1,200 today, and that if you can find it at all, it is 30% more money, maybe more. That is my point. not the bikes are overpriced rant, but specifically, that the prices have crept, and now jumped up a lot just in the last few years compared to 4, 5 years ago, not 20.
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Old 04-06-21, 07:53 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Check the prices now. Willing to bet you can't get that CADX Tiagra on sale for $1,200 today, and that if you can find it at all, it is 30% more money, maybe more. That is my point. not the bikes are overpriced rant, but specifically, that the prices have crept, and now jumped up a lot just in the last few years compared to 4, 5 years ago, not 20.
Yes, let's go on pretending that Covid and the tariffs have had no effects on bike pricing.
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Old 04-06-21, 07:55 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Several people have commented on my $30k cars comment. Apparently that ruffled some feathers. Also apparently there is disparity in everyone's idea of what constitutes a decent car. Also, reading comprehension seems to be a rarity in this modern world of ours. If you look at my original post, I said "decent car." Perhaps I should have increased the size of the text, bolded it, italicized the text, and underlined it. You know, for emphasis.

A Mazda 3 may be a worthy car for the $22k price tag, but it is and always will be the bottom of Mazda's lineup. Its an entry level car or a student car. Simply put, its an economy compact car, so probably not a good argument in this case.

We like CRVs, and we've had several in the last 25 years. They seem to be a decent combination of size, snow-handling, capabilities, conveniences, and luxury. If you want one, they are hard to find up here without having some sort of value-added package, which of course adds to the price. Here is a good example of a couple cars in my area: 2020 CRV As you can plainly see, they roll off the lot at $30k+.
There is a big discrepancy in views on what decent is. You point out a honda CRV and see that as more decent then a 3 when its nothing more then an econobox cross over which is overpriced because crossovers are popular, not cause its all that great. I drove one and didn't notice its truly redeeming qualities for the cost and made my second car a minivan. You also help underline the issue with the modern american view on excess. My 17 Mazda 3 had front and side airbags, ABS, cruise, power everything, a smart system with screen, could get 42mpg highway, could fit three car seats across the back seat, two full sized adults in the front, 4 standard sized suitcases in the trunk and could easily navigate winters off the SE coast of Lake Ontario. It didn't have rattles or squeaks, was zippy and fun. There's nothing compact about it, my old Yugo was compact, the Peugeot 207 I rented was compact, the 1999 Corolla I rented was compact, when I bought one in 2009 it wasn't quite so compact. It might have been compact at one time, but it has plenty of space now. What it really is in sensibly economical and everything I see as necessary for a decent car.
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Old 04-06-21, 08:55 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Check the prices now. Willing to bet you can't get that CADX Tiagra on sale for $1,200 today, and that if you can find it at all, it is 30% more money, maybe more. That is my point. not the bikes are overpriced rant, but specifically, that the prices have crept, and now jumped up a lot just in the last few years compared to 4, 5 years ago, not 20.
Looks like they discontinued it for 2021, I would guess to limit their lines in the midst of rampant shortages and the need to have complete lines shipping. The Topstone which is its equivalent is now 1300 and equipped the same, hardly the 30% increase you're proclaiming over 1200 two years ago. a 7.5% increase.
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Old 04-06-21, 09:07 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Looks like they discontinued it for 2021, I would guess to limit their lines in the midst of rampant shortages and the need to have complete lines shipping. The Topstone which is its equivalent is now 1300 and equipped the same, hardly the 30% increase you're proclaiming over 1200 two years ago. a 7.5% increase.
The CAADX Tiagra is listed on the Cannondale website as a current model, but they don't list the price. But we are getting into the weeds here. The topic of this thread was the creeping costs of entry. While $1,300 is in some ways entry level for Cyclocross or gravel racing, that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about just getting started with an entry level bike that doesn't suck, and my point is, that used to be $400, maybe $450, that that price is way up.
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Old 04-06-21, 09:39 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
I was talking about just getting started with an entry level bike that doesn't suck, and my point is, that used to be $400, maybe $450, that that price is way up.
IT must be pretty rough nowadays. Back in the old days, 2008, it cost me $129 for entry.

This one, which maybe you'd say fails "doesn't suck" but it's still a decent ride as it is there.
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Old 04-06-21, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
A Mazda 3 may be a worthy car for the $22k price tag, but it is and always will be the bottom of Mazda's lineup. Its an entry level car or a student car. Simply put, its an economy compact car, so probably not a good argument in this case
The Mazda 3 isn't the bottom of the lineup. It's their smallest car currently sold in America (Mazda 2 was smaller but now sold since 2014) but smallest doesn't equal bottom. It's not an entry level car or student car. It's a compact car so it's cheaper, but that's it.

​​​​​​The equipment levels aren't that different from other Mazdas. The only difference is size of the car. Want a Mazda 3 with leather, sunroof, climate control, fancy touchscreen, nice interior, upgraded stereo? You can get one really easily.

The Honda CR-V you go on about? Same class as the Mazda 3. It's a compact built on the Civic platform. It's basically a Civic crossover.

The Mazda 3 is a compact sedan or hatchback.

Last edited by guachi; 04-06-21 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 04-06-21, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
IT must be pretty rough nowadays. Back in the old days, 2008, it cost me $129 for entry.

This one, which maybe you'd say fails "doesn't suck" but it's still a decent ride as it is there.
Did you buy it used, or were you the one that rode it into the ground like that?
Lots of people don't want to buy used, for good reason. I would say any self-respecting bike shop would not fix your bike for an economic price. One of my biggest frustrations as a bike mechanic BITD is we had to work on any bike that walked in the door and only fix what the customer wanted. Much better to insist that the bike leave the shop in fully ridable condition or no repair. You might be able to fix it yourself, which is fine, but most people know that they can't do that. And getting parts is a real struggle right now. You can call it bike shops being snobbish, or look at it as self care. Being a bike mechanic doesn't pay enough to struggle trying to fix a bike that isn't valued enough to be kept in a decent condition.
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Old 04-06-21, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Did you buy it used, or were you the one that rode it into the ground like that?
Lots of people don't want to buy used, for good reason. I would say any self-respecting bike shop would not fix your bike for an economic price. One of my biggest frustrations as a bike mechanic BITD is we had to work on any bike that walked in the door and only fix what the customer wanted. Much better to insist that the bike leave the shop in fully ridable condition or no repair. You might be able to fix it yourself, which is fine, but most people know that they can't do that. And getting parts is a real struggle right now. You can call it bike shops being snobbish, or look at it as self care. Being a bike mechanic doesn't pay enough to struggle trying to fix a bike that isn't valued enough to be kept in a decent condition.
Oh no, it was new and the wear and tear is all on me. The bike is scuffed up, but in no way requires any repair. Bar tape, that's it.

Just curious, why attack my beater like that? I'd expect more respectful conduct from a moderator, but maybe I'm just behind the times here.
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