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KMC vs Shimano

Old 06-01-21, 08:13 PM
  #26  
aclinjury
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Nope, sold that bike. The bonded alloy fork was too vague feeling for me on high speed descents.

That said, why would you worry about such a thing? You're certainly not riding like that are you? You can't fault user error. I'll bet it jumps off too, to what end does that prove anything?

Just out of curiosity I did just try it with my Y-Foil running an Ultegra 11 speed setup and a Shimano chain. Guess what, it jumps off so staying with a Shimano chain still doesn't save you from user error.



I mean let's be honest, if you're setting up your crankset, RD, chainline to be able to cross chain at it's most extreme and backpedal then you might want to rethink what you are doing. Or is there a legitimate reason to be worrying about this? Asking honestly because I certainly don't know everything. Even if I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night LOL!
Obviously, there are a few factors determining how a chain interact with the cassette.

But let me as you this from an engineering perspective. Shimano spents a lot of R&D to perfect their Hyperglide cassette profile, and they have spent a lot of time designing and testing their chains to work with their cassette. Given that 11spd have tighter tolerance, don't you think that it's better to use Shimano chain with Shimano cassette as they intended? I tried the KMC chain on my 11spd and it was VERY noisy during cross-chaining. Put the Shimano chain on and it was day and night difference. Backpedalling did not cause the chain to jump all the times, but my point here not whether I routinely backpedal the road, my point here is that Shimano spent a lot of money designing their chain and cassette to have the profile they have for a reason. I'm not saying KMC chains won't work, but I'm saying that shimano chains are optimized to work with their drivetrains and thus should work better with their cassettes.

Last edited by aclinjury; 06-02-21 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 06-01-21, 09:02 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Obviously, there are a few factors determining how a chain interact with the cassette.

But let me as you this from an engineering perspective. Shimano spents a lot of R&D to perfect their Hyperglide cassette profile, and they have spent a lot of time designing and testing their chains to work with their cassette. Given that 11spd have tighter tolerance, don't you think that it's better to use Shimano chain with Shimano cassette as they intended? I tried the KMC chain on my 11spd and it was VERY noisy during cross-chaining. Put the Shimano chain on and it was day and night difference. Backpedalling did not cause the chain to jump. My point here is that I backpedal a lot on the road. My point here is that Shimano spent a lot of money designing their chain and cassette to have the profile they have for a reason. I'm not saying KMC chains won't work, but I'm saying that shimano chains are optimized and thus should work better with Shimano cassettes.
Do you work for Shimano?
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Old 06-02-21, 03:12 AM
  #28  
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Does kmc use the same type of connector link as SRAM? I always run SRAM because I like those links and I have the pliers to undo them.
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Old 06-02-21, 07:02 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Do you work for Shimano?
so, I take that you've never examined the profile of a KMC 11spd vs Shimano 11spd chain? Why do you ask stupid questions, make stupid comments, without even basic examinations? Do you work for a living? You don't sound too smart amigo. Shimano is one the few companies in the cycling industry who are conservatives in what they say, what they do, not known for pushing much bs like the American companies, while they're not perfect but Shimano is one of the very few companies in this industry to actually have PhDs on their staff. Don't confuse Japanese engineering culture with American marketing culture. But I understand, this is an American forum, so your skeptical behavior is ingrained and expected.

Last edited by aclinjury; 06-02-21 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 06-02-21, 08:16 AM
  #30  
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I have a KMC chain on my bike and while I have no complaints about the chain, I think the chain IS noisier than Shimano chains I've run in the past. Life expectancy wise, I think they are about equal.
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Old 06-02-21, 09:56 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
so, I take that you've never examined the profile of a KMC 11spd vs Shimano 11spd chain? Why do you ask stupid questions, make stupid comments, without even basic examinations? Do you work for a living? You don't sound too smart amigo. Shimano is one the few companies in the cycling industry who are conservatives in what they say, what they do, not known for pushing much bs like the American companies, while they're not perfect but Shimano is one of the very few companies in this industry to actually have PhDs on their staff. Don't confuse Japanese engineering culture with American marketing culture. But I understand, this is an American forum, so your skeptical behavior is ingrained and expected.
You do realize that KMC engineers and produces Shimano chains, yes?
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Old 06-02-21, 10:10 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Obviously, there are a few factors determining how a chain interact with the cassette.

But let me as you this from an engineering perspective. Shimano spents a lot of R&D to perfect their Hyperglide cassette profile, and they have spent a lot of time designing and testing their chains to work with their cassette. Given that 11spd have tighter tolerance, don't you think that it's better to use Shimano chain with Shimano cassette as they intended? I tried the KMC chain on my 11spd and it was VERY noisy during cross-chaining. Put the Shimano chain on and it was day and night difference. Backpedalling did not cause the chain to jump all the times, but my point here not whether I routinely backpedal the road, my point here is that Shimano spent a lot of money designing their chain and cassette to have the profile they have for a reason. I'm not saying KMC chains won't work, but I'm saying that shimano chains are optimized to work with their drivetrains and thus should work better with their cassettes.
Well to be honest no. You keep talking cross-chaining and pedaling backwards and such. You do realize cross-chaining is bad on your components and causes increased wear right? So why is this your "parameter" of choice to validate using a Shimano chain. In fact you seem to have ignored my comment that even the Shimano chain doesn't like cross-chaining on my full Shimano 11 speed setup. Not that it means anything in practical use.

Shocking as it may be I also, gasp, use SRAM chains with Shimano gear and yes, I even sometimes use SRAM cassettes.

I've also have several bikes in the past running aftermarket chainrings and will say without a doubt that the Wickwerks chainrings I've used were clearly superior to the Shimano ones I swapped them for.

I run Shimano and Campagnolo setups from 6 speed now up to 11. I've yet to find any brand chain to be a limiting factor. Hence why I'll go with the best buy I can find of a compatible chain and not really worry about brand.

Anyway, it's always fun to have these little discussions. I see no reason to stay brand specific where as you see one. It's all good!
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Old 06-02-21, 10:29 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
so, I take that you've never examined the profile of a KMC 11spd vs Shimano 11spd chain? Why do you ask stupid questions, make stupid comments, without even basic examinations? Do you work for a living? You don't sound too smart amigo. Shimano is one the few companies in the cycling industry who are conservatives in what they say, what they do, not known for pushing much bs like the American companies, while they're not perfect but Shimano is one of the very few companies in this industry to actually have PhDs on their staff. Don't confuse Japanese engineering culture with American marketing culture. But I understand, this is an American forum, so your skeptical behavior is ingrained and expected.
Do a web search for Hollowtech Crank failure. Tell me what you see. Yeah, ouch.

Do a web search for SRAM crank failure. Tell me what you see. Not much, and lots of people abuse their SRAM cranks by bashing them off every rock in the Rockies.

Then do a search for Campagnolo crank failure. Yeah, a bit different. A bunch of people grousing about the fact that you need to set the bearing preload with shims.

Lots of Shimano stuff is great, but I am not impressed with "Japanese engineering culture" shtick. Every Subaru owner loves them,, but Subaru allows 1 quart per 3600 miles while my Jaguar has zero oil level drop (consumption == blow by gain) over 10,000 miles. Supposedly that Jag uses an engine co-designed with McLaren, two fine examples of British Engineering culture... "That looks good man, have another pint!"
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Old 06-02-21, 10:53 AM
  #34  
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I pretty much have used low end KMC and SRAM chains for years with no problems. However, I donít ever recall buying a Shimano chain, so I canít make any comparison.

Running KMC chains on both of my bikes, and both are set up as SS. The MTB has an 8-speed chain, because nothing on it requires 1/8Ē chain.

Otto
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Old 06-02-21, 11:19 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Do a web search for Hollowtech Crank failure. Tell me what you see. Yeah, ouch.

Do a web search for SRAM crank failure. Tell me what you see. Not much, and lots of people abuse their SRAM cranks by bashing them off every rock in the Rockies.

Then do a search for Campagnolo crank failure."
Now do a search for KMC crank failure, and then return to this discussion about chains.
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Old 06-02-21, 04:02 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
so, I take that you've never examined the profile of a KMC 11spd vs Shimano 11spd chain? Why do you ask stupid questions, make stupid comments, without even basic examinations? Do you work for a living? You don't sound too smart amigo. Shimano is one the few companies in the cycling industry who are conservatives in what they say, what they do, not known for pushing much bs like the American companies, while they're not perfect but Shimano is one of the very few companies in this industry to actually have PhDs on their staff. Don't confuse Japanese engineering culture with American marketing culture. But I understand, this is an American forum, so your skeptical behavior is ingrained and expected.
Oh gee. Now I feel all bad inside and stuff.

Wow. Real PhD's you say? I had no idea, those must be some smart chains. Can't say I've ever heard of a PhD who works at KMC.

Now I need to find something to make me feel better about myself. I know. Think I will cross chain my bike and take videos of it pedaling backwards.
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Old 06-02-21, 04:08 PM
  #37  
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What isn't being really talked about is why there even is a KMC vs Shimano discussion. Or, IOW, why would you use KMC instead of Shimano if you have a Shimano drivetrain, or KMC instead of Campy if you have a Campy drivetrain?

I don't see much of a price difference, so what's this discussion about?
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Old 06-02-21, 07:44 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
What isn't being really talked about is why there even is a KMC vs Shimano discussion. Or, IOW, why would you use KMC instead of Shimano if you have a Shimano drivetrain, or KMC instead of Campy if you have a Campy drivetrain?

I don't see much of a price difference, so what's this discussion about?
Maybe think of it as the same as, "do I replace my worn Shimano brake pads with Shimano, or Kool Stop, or Swiss Stop, or Reynolds, or..." ????
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Old 06-02-21, 08:13 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
You do realize that KMC engineers and produces Shimano chains, yes?
Nope. KMC manufactures Shimano chains. They don't engineer any Shimano products. They have no right to Shimano patents. C'mon dude.
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Old 06-02-21, 08:15 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Oh gee. Now I feel all bad inside and stuff.

Wow. Real PhD's you say? I had no idea, those must be some smart chains. Can't say I've ever heard of a PhD who works at KMC.

Now I need to find something to make me feel better about myself. I know. Think I will cross chain my bike and take videos of it pedaling backwards.
nothing to add huh? Typical know nothing expert bro.
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Old 06-02-21, 08:26 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
What isn't being really talked about is why there even is a KMC vs Shimano discussion. Or, IOW, why would you use KMC instead of Shimano if you have a Shimano drivetrain, or KMC instead of Campy if you have a Campy drivetrain?

I don't see much of a price difference, so what's this discussion about?
Read the first post. One reason the OP gave is the quick link.

KMC chains go on sale all the time, more so than Shimano in my experience. So don't know that I agree with your price is the same statement.

My recumbent takes a 10' chain. T Cycles sells KMC chains by the foot, so I can get a single chain rather than piecing together 3 separate chains.

I've owned countless 5-7 speed bikes. The Z51 chains are dirt cheap and just excellent for that purpose. I get those for under $10 most of the time.

Last reason is why do so many bike manufactures ship with KMC instead of Shimano chains? Maybe they know something?
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Old 06-02-21, 08:28 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
Do a web search for Hollowtech Crank failure. Tell me what you see. Yeah, ouch.

Do a web search for SRAM crank failure. Tell me what you see. Not much, and lots of people abuse their SRAM cranks by bashing them off every rock in the Rockies.

Then do a search for Campagnolo crank failure. Yeah, a bit different. A bunch of people grousing about the fact that you need to set the bearing preload with shims.

Lots of Shimano stuff is great, but I am not impressed with "Japanese engineering culture" shtick. Every Subaru owner loves them,, but Subaru allows 1 quart per 3600 miles while my Jaguar has zero oil level drop (consumption == blow by gain) over 10,000 miles. Supposedly that Jag uses an engine co-designed with McLaren, two fine examples of British Engineering culture... "That looks good man, have another pint!"
You do realize that Shimano cranks are the most faked cranks on the market right? Furthermore, Shimano being the 800lb gorilla OEM player, you'll bound to read more issues about them. Your research is meaningless without relative stats figures.

Jaguars are crap pos. You'd need to live next to Jag dealer to drive them ). In 10 years your Jag is worth 10% of its original value. Same with McLaren. Porsche (911) is the only sports car created by engineers for the true racers (who have to pay to play).
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Old 06-02-21, 08:37 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Well to be honest no. You keep talking cross-chaining and pedaling backwards and such. You do realize cross-chaining is bad on your components and causes increased wear right? So why is this your "parameter" of choice to validate using a Shimano chain. In fact you seem to have ignored my comment that even the Shimano chain doesn't like cross-chaining on my full Shimano 11 speed setup. Not that it means anything in practical use.

Shocking as it may be I also, gasp, use SRAM chains with Shimano gear and yes, I even sometimes use SRAM cassettes.

I've also have several bikes in the past running aftermarket chainrings and will say without a doubt that the Wickwerks chainrings I've used were clearly superior to the Shimano ones I swapped them for.

I run Shimano and Campagnolo setups from 6 speed now up to 11. I've yet to find any brand chain to be a limiting factor. Hence why I'll go with the best buy I can find of a compatible chain and not really worry about brand.

Anyway, it's always fun to have these little discussions. I see no reason to stay brand specific where as you see one. It's all good!
Do you even read man? I already explained why I mentioned about backpedalling as a test parameter and not as something I practice. Bro, do you understand engineering, testing doesn't mean doing.

And racers, aggressive riders, do cross chain in many certain situations where they cannot or do not want to go down the small chainring. Modern drivetrains are engineered to accomodate crosschaining. This is not to say people should do it 100% of the times. Do you understand the need to crosschain when you want to hammer thru a short but power climb section? Do you understand that if you're hammering in the big ring on a 2-3% slope at 19-20 mph trying not to get dropped from the group, and if you now suddenly drop into the small chainring (because you want to avoid crosschaining), then not only will you be dropped from the group, you stand a chance of dropping your chain completely. It appears that you don't understand why people sometimes will crosschain. Not everyone like to ride at tourist pace, eh.
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Old 06-03-21, 06:40 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Read the first post. One reason the OP gave is the quick link.

KMC chains go on sale all the time, more so than Shimano in my experience. So don't know that I agree with your price is the same statement.

My recumbent takes a 10' chain. T Cycles sells KMC chains by the foot, so I can get a single chain rather than piecing together 3 separate chains.

I've owned countless 5-7 speed bikes. The Z51 chains are dirt cheap and just excellent for that purpose. I get those for under $10 most of the time.
Good points. OP is just talking about an 8-speed chain. KMC and SRAM chains work great on 8-speed drivetrains and come with handy quick links that donít need tools.

Also, I usually see KMC 8-speed chains for just over $10, but Shimano always seems to be more than twice that. So my experience is that there is a price difference.

Otto
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Old 06-03-21, 07:30 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ofajen
Good points. OP is just talking about an 8-speed chain. KMC and SRAM chains work great on 8-speed drivetrains and come with handy quick links that donít need tools.

Also, I usually see KMC 8-speed chains for just over $10, but Shimano always seems to be more than twice that. So my experience is that there is a price difference.

Otto
Yep, I was on the Davidson yesterday running a KMC chain on a Shimano 600 Tricolor 8 speed setup with Campagnolo Eurus Wheels using a SRAM 8 speed cassette. One of my quietest and best shifting bikes with such a great ride. I run a lot of 8 speed setups on the various bikes and hardly ever find a quality chain available that beats the KMC's price.

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Old 06-03-21, 07:34 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Do you even read man? I already explained why I mentioned about backpedalling as a test parameter and not as something I practice. Bro, do you understand engineering, testing doesn't mean doing.

And racers, aggressive riders, do cross chain in many certain situations where they cannot or do not want to go down the small chainring. Modern drivetrains are engineered to accomodate crosschaining. This is not to say people should do it 100% of the times. Do you understand the need to crosschain when you want to hammer thru a short but power climb section? Do you understand that if you're hammering in the big ring on a 2-3% slope at 19-20 mph trying not to get dropped from the group, and if you now suddenly drop into the small chainring (because you want to avoid crosschaining), then not only will you be dropped from the group, you stand a chance of dropping your chain completely. It appears that you don't understand why people sometimes will crosschain. Not everyone like to ride at tourist pace, eh.
Well it's a good thing so many of the pro's use those strong KMC chains then, LOL! You really are taking all this silliness pretty serious. Why?
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Old 06-03-21, 08:56 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Well it's a good thing so many of the pro's use those strong KMC chains then, LOL! You really are taking all this silliness pretty serious. Why?
pros will sometimes use stupid light and expensive chains for a TT effort. It's a use once and discard type of chains. You don't sound like the sort of people who do that. Please man don't think your KMC chains are the sort of chains pros use.
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Old 06-03-21, 10:06 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
You do realize that Shimano cranks are the most faked cranks on the market right? Furthermore, Shimano being the 800lb gorilla OEM player, you'll bound to read more issues about them. Your research is meaningless without relative stats figures.

Jaguars are crap pos. You'd need to live next to Jag dealer to drive them ). In 10 years your Jag is worth 10% of its original value. Same with McLaren. Porsche (911) is the only sports car created by engineers for the true racers (who have to pay to play).
The failing cranks are not counterfeits. They are genuine Shimano, primarily Ultegra and Dura Ace. There is a lot of speculation about the root cause. See https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...crank-failure/ for more information, but these are not counterfeits or cranks damaged by abuse or crashes.

There are a lot of SRAM cranks being used in some very abusive environments, and they are not failing to the same extent.

While Campagnolo are not nearly as common, there are enough that if they were failing it would be noticed. To me it seems that Shimano and their engineering staff have not done a good job of responding to the issue.

As far as Jaguar goes, you are repeating an assessment from the 1990's. They have changed a lot since then. Mine is 50% German components, and the only failures have been German and were covered under warranty. And I don't want a race car. I want a touring car that could do 700 mile days without beating me up.

A 911 is not a good touring car. And would you want to drive a 911 on snow and ice covered roads? I compared it to a 3 Series BMW, and the XE was clearly better for my needs and wants.
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Old 06-03-21, 10:13 AM
  #49  
DangerousDanR
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
What isn't being really talked about is why there even is a KMC vs Shimano discussion. Or, IOW, why would you use KMC instead of Shimano if you have a Shimano drivetrain, or KMC instead of Campy if you have a Campy drivetrain?

I don't see much of a price difference, so what's this discussion about?
Last time I looked the official Campagnolo way to join a chain involved a one time use pin and a special tool. I have bikes with SRAM, Campagnolo, Shimano and Box drive trains. My older chain tools work just fine on KMC. I don't want to have multiple sets of chain tools. Also, the LBS stocks SRAM chain at reasonable prices. So I have some KMC and some SRAM chains. Not a big deal..
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Old 06-03-21, 10:19 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
pros will sometimes use stupid light and expensive chains for a TT effort. It's a use once and discard type of chains. You don't sound like the sort of people who do that. Please man don't think your KMC chains are the sort of chains pros use.
Lol,!!!!!!
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