Shimagnolo

I just looked thought the manual we used, and found no mention of it.

ETA Correction, I just found it:

Press: To initiate motorcycle lean, press forward on the handgrip in the direction of the turn. This is referred to as counter-steering (the front wheel briefly points in the opposite direction of the turn). Press left handgrip, lean left, go left. Press right handgrip, lean right, go right.

aclinjury

finally, a video explaining the physics behind countersteering

a few takaway points:
-countersteering is the quickest method to initiate a turn
-countersteering cannot (and must not) be maintained after the initiation phase (very quick) has been completed, i.e., the handlebar must be returned to the normal steering position
-the above video demonstate a "no slip" condition. In a slip condttion, eg, in flat-tracking, where the rider intentionally slip the back wheel to go around a turn, then countersteering is maintained throughout the turn. But ugh, do not try to flat-track your bicycle on the pavement, it will not end well.

AlmostTrick

Wouldn't you get a better counter steer with a heavier bike?

Happy Feet

In this case, the video above, counter steering is just being used to initiate a sharper turn by first increasing the radius by banking the opposite way. A fighter pilot might do the same thing if banking down to attack from above and a skier does it running moguls.

The bike needs to make sharp radius turns through pylons. They first counter steer to increase the radius and drop their balance lower, allowing a steeper angle of attack.

If they were going slower, or not turning so sharply, they would not need to counter steer.

terrymorse 

Not quite right.

In a left turn, turning the bar left moves the contact patch left (to the inside of the turn). This unbalances the bike/rider system, causing the rider+bike to start tilting to the right. If the rider does nothing else, the bike/rider will continue to tilt to the right, and he will soon "high side" and fall to the outside of the turn. What happens in reality is the rider compensates with a quick turn of the bars to the right, the bike+rider establish a stable more upright lean angle, and the turn radius increases.

The ability to quickly increase the radius of a turn is another useful skill, accomplished once again by counter steering.

No. Pushing on the right bar in a left turn is the identical situation described above (pulling on the left bar in a left turn).

70sSanO

I would imagine way less than 1% of bike riders have ever heard of countersteering or even know that they do it instinctively. I had not heard the term until recently, relatively speaking, in comparison to my years of riding.

Many years ago I would occasionally ride with no hands and could negotiate sweeping turns. I have no doubt that I shifted my weight slightly to countersteer and then shifted it back to make the turn; although I really was not analyzing it.

I would guess at speed with hands on the bars, a good portion of is done with weight. Going into a left turn would be a slight lean right and lean to dive left. I’m sure the bars are turning slightly.

I also understand the upright tricycle effect where you can’t really lean into a turn. At speed, unless you can drift the rear wheels or move a substantial amount of weight to the inside, you won’t make the turn.

I’m not sure, but I would guess steering may be more pronounced on a motorcycle, since the bike weight is substantially greater. While rider weight has an influence. getting the bike to lean through steering, right go left, might be more pronounced.

John

redcon1

Here is the MSF Basic Rider Course description Basic RiderCourse (msf-usa.org)

Pressing to Initiate and Adjust Lean
Understand the maneuvering elements needed for negotiating curves

• Experience the effects of handgrip pressure and handlebar movement to initiate and adjust lean

Maybe Keith Code's school sued them for using the term Countersteering? But they certainly are still teaching the technique.
The Advance Course I took included some tough crash-avoidance exercises using countersteering that some riders on heavy baggers never mastered. We used our own motorcycles and I had no issues on my VFR750.

aclinjury

probably not.
Reason is with a heavier bike, while the torque that initiates the countersteer is greater, but this greater torque is negated by the greater weight of the bike.
It's the reason why lighter bikes are quicker (all else being equal).

indyfabz

Is it a BSO with disc brakes and a bell?

Happy Feet

I have read this several times and keep thinking we are saying the same thng in different ways. The pushing and pulling occurs during turning but is really all about balance.
Still being full from just having enjoyed an epic details debate I'll push away from the table and say ok. I understand what you are describing.

terrymorse 

Yes, we are close to saying the same thing, but you got a bit of it wrong. See below:

Only momentarily. Turning the bars left moves the contact patch of the front tire inside of the current turn circle, followed quickly by an opposite handlebar turn to keep from falling, which will increase the radius of the turn.

No, you would fall out of the turn (towards the outside).

AdkMtnMonster

It’s the “only way tighten the radius of a turn” but somehow, “Most people never use counter steering to tighten the radius of a turn.”


Very, very interesting.

Soooo... most people never turn?

(Just got back from a nice easy 25 mile ride and I turned a lot. Didn’t turn the wrong way one single time. When I was in a tuck on a fast descent @ 45mph I leaned and the bike turned. Thank God my bike isn’t dumb enough to counter steer or I would have crashed hard.)

70sSanO

On my mountain bike I’ll sometimes have to lean the bike left and out of the saddle be more upright, which is technically on the right side of the leaned bike. This has nothing to do with counter steering, basically it is weight shifting.

John

seypat

Does steering/turning a bike have anything to do with "the force?"

Edit: The way the thread's going, it seems like it.

JeffOYB

google wiki then "countersteering"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

then look down a bit: "The scientific literature does not provide a clear and comprehensive definition of countersteering."

JeffOYB

...does the science that we know about agree that leaning and steering are both involved in turning and that they can be adjusted separately? ...we can use more or less lean and more or less steer to change the angle of the bike in the turn.

if countersteering is how we steer then countersteering LESS would amount to more "felt" steer in the direction of the turn.

keeping a bike more upright in a turn can improve traction and control

AlmostTrick

For best counter steer should I mash or spin?

terrymorse 

Are you recommending this “lean the bike upright in a turn” technique for a road bike, which would require the rider to lean off the bike?

I can’t see how that would be beneficial.

tyrion

Steering (while moving) is going to affect the lean - no getting around that on 2 wheels. It might undo the lean, but it's still adjusting the lean.

aclinjury

another great counter steer demostration, push left go left, push right go right. Sheesh people are making this more complicated then it s.

Motorazr

That's kind of nonsensical question, isn't it?. Are you asking about a heavy frame with light wheels, a light-weight frame with very heavy wheels, or something else? Bottom-line; rotating wheels with more mass create greater gyroscopic precession than lighter wheels for a given rpm. The gyroscopic force of the wheels has little to do with the mass of the thing they're attached to.

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the term "gyroscopic precession". Spin a bicycle wheel with it's axle in your hands and try to turn it left or right suddenly. Gyroscopic precession will cause the wheel to strongly want to flop on it's side. Gyroscopic precession acts at a 90-degree angle to the deflection of the spinning mass. This technical term is the root of counter-steering (and the reason why counter-steering doesn't work at very low speeds where there is little gyroscopic force in the wheel). Try to turn a moving two-wheel vehicle to the LEFT, and gyroscopic precession causes the bicycle/motorcycle to flop over to the right thus initiating a RIGHT-hand turn by turning slightly LEFT. The popular claim is that "scientists can't explain how a bicycle steers" but that's absurd - the physics are very well understood but, with so many overlapping factors to account for, there just isn't a simple formula to mathematically describe a turning bicycle (the rounded cross-section of a deformed tire under load plays a huge role in the resulting geometry).

I read Keith Code's book "A Twist of the Wrist" 30-years ago but I was aware of counter-steering since childhood from riding motorcycles (and also from owning a crazy and dangerous bicycle with a round steering wheel instead of a handlebar - very difficult to ride).

Have a look at this YouTube video below explaining how the U.S. Navy created a guided air-to-air missile in the 1950's without the use of any sophisticated electronics nor even a traditional battery - the AIM-9 Sidewinder missile. Note that the control vane shown in the video, the "rolleron", one of four on the missile, is hinged at a 45-degree angle. With the air wheel within each rolleron spinning at over 100,000 rpm in supersonic air, when the missile veers off course, gyroscopic precession causes the rolleron to flop out in the opposite direction harnessing air-pressure to turn the missile back straight again. In the original 1950's version of the missile, there was only a very basic, yet ingenious, electrical mechanism (powered by a burning "thermal battery") for "proportional pursuit" guidance offering high-performance target lead calculation without the use of any computer. Amazing ingenuity based on German WWII research captured by the Western Allies. Anyway, yeah, gyroscopic precession.

DaveSSS 

The very first thing mentioned in my msf course was push right to turn right. That’s countersteering. My instructor was a retired motorcycle cop. Since then I've used it on the bicycle too never missed a turn in the mountains on motorcycle or bicycle.

Great video above. It shows that counter steering must be maintained to keep turning. Its not just an initiator. Some people will swear that once a turn is initiated, it will continue without further counter steering. Not true at all.

terrymorse 

What we have here is failure to comprehend. Let me clarify:

Not what I wrote. Counter steering is the only way to tighten the radius of a turn by using your handlebars.

​​​​​​​Correct, my observation of many descending cyclists over many years suggests that most of them never change the radius of their turn. They lock in a radius at the start of a turn and hang onto it.

I've also seen people crash when they didn't change their radius to avoid an obstacle or keep from veering off the tarmac.

Don't be daft.

Happy Feet

I know I shouldn't but...

You are describing what would happen after what I explained. .

And I agree.

You would decrease the radius, and in reaction to that, would over correct and increase it again or flop over to the outside. You could also lay the bike down to the inside if you lose traction.

Both could happen.

livedarklions

I tried steering my counter, but the damn thing won't move.