Paul Barnard

I just ordered a new derailleur hanger for my Lynskey Backroad. My wife's e-bike fell on it and bent it. The symptoms? Chatter in the smaller gears only. I have a bent SRAM X7 derailleur in my attic. It ran fine on all but the two smallest cogs before I removed it. It's fascinating that my experience is so different from yours.

This is the email I sent them asking which hanger I would need.

My idiot wife knocked my Lynskey Backroad over and bent the derailleur hanger. Mine is set up for quick release rather than thru axle. Which derailleur hanger do I need to order? If you know any good divorce attorneys in the New Orleans area, I'd appreciate that info too.

Thanks,
Paul

Bill in VA

I like this. Now my 3X is in reality a new trendy 1X with 2 backups...

trailangel

My mom really likes the 1x setup... she doesn't have to think about gearing... just shift.

cxwrench

While your experience is definitely your experience I think what I have seen in the last 26 years of doing this for a living might carry a tad more weight. You see what happens to your bikes. I see what happens to thousands of them...from pro team bikes to complete beaters.

sean.hwy

I thought 1x was better about cross chaining and easier shifting etc.. not stuck between high first chain ring and low 2ng chain ring. Don't have a front derailleur that constantly needs to be shifted because of an ever so slight chain rub.
I like the look of 1x and the less weight etc..
I seem to have a narrow rpm range or just seem to prefer it. I need my 2x to maintain speed over long distance.

Paul Barnard

With all of that experience, the OP would probably appreciate it if you tried to give him a starting place in trouble shooting, and perhaps tell him what he stands to lose by using the barrel adjuster. I appreciate your eloquence in asserting that I am wrong.

GrainBrain

1x with low/high/overdrive

Koyote

Been thinking more about this, and I think you are wrong -- and your statement above demonstrates why. If the chain ring on a 1x is "positioned on the nominal chain line so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette," there will indeed, by definition, be cross-chaining (more extreme lateral angle) when at the more extreme ends of the cassette. And with only one chainring, a rider has no option to choose a different chainring to mitigate the cross-chaining.

Stating that a 1x system "reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state" is a straw man argument, since that is NOT how a reasonably knowledgeable rider would use a 2x or 3x system; that rider would shift to a smaller chainring before getting to the big-big combo, and would shift to the bigger chainring before getting to the small-small combo.

Whether a 1x or 2x will involve more cross-chaining depends on the specific gearing (cassette and chainring(s)), the rider's terrain and cadence preferences, etc. But in my terrain (very hilly), a 1x would often have me on the extreme ends of the cassette, while a 2x allows me to get less lateral deflection of the chain.

Again, I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with a 1x -- I would happily ride one.

Cpn_Dunsel

...

Koyote

Second link doesn’t work for me, and the first is to a discussion on another forum - which is a rather cheeky way of trying to prove a point on this forum!

If “cross-chaining” means lateral deflection of the chain (as you’ve described it), you are definitely incorrect. That’s obvious. But again, it’s academic, since it’s not really a problem.

Cpn_Dunsel

https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining/

If there is only one ring there is no smallest or biggest. There is only one. One ring to rule them all.


Cross chaining is the condition where the chain is running across the drivetrain centerline — for example: From the BIG Front chain ring to Biggest Rear cassette cogs, or from the SMALL Front chain ring to the Smallest Rear cassette cogs

Cross chaining on a 1x is a non-issue. Period.

Remember please, my argument is a rebuttal of your statement that a 1x cause GREATER cross chaining. It does not. It does just the opposite.

Thanks for the spirited discussion.


# 30.

Paul Barnard

Can you point me to a formal definition of cross chaining? When you read his actual words with an eye toward understanding, rather than nitpicking language with an eye toward winning an internet argument, his words make sense and are spot on. I spend much more of my time on my 1X in a gear that has a greater chain angle from front to back than I do with my 2X and 3X. If I understand him correctly, that's what he's saying. Further, with a 1X I don't have the option of reducing those angles like I do on a 2X and 3X.

Koyote

Ah! Yes, using the “center line“ explanation, you are, by definition, correct. But in your first post in this thread – post number four – you were talking about “lateral deflection” of the chain, and I was responding to that. (We can set aside the fact that others define “cross chaining“ as that lateral defection that you referred to.)

You’ve changed your argument now, and under those terms you are indeed correct.

Yes, Paul understands my point.

To the extent that cross-chaining actually causes any issues with a drive train, it has absolutely nothing to do with a theoretical “centerline,“ and everything to do with that lateral deflection of the chain.

70sSanO

After many decades of hearing the perils of cross chaining, I have come to the conclusion that cross chaining is a myth.

I heard about cross chaining back in the 6 speed freewheel days that were less than 30mm wide. People are running 1x11 with cassettes that are 40mm wide.

But the main reason I believe it is a myth is because no one can define the angle that must be crossed to be cross chaining. The reason is that I really don't think anyone can calculate that angle based on the exact point of engagement/disengagement of the chain in relation to chainring/cog size, and chainstay length.

It like talking to an old person who tells you that you can't do something and when pushed for a reason it ends up with "Don't try to confuse me; everyone knows that you shouldn't do that."

John

Cpn_Dunsel

...

Paul Barnard

Say what, my well schooled friend?

Koyote

In an earlier thread, you passed yourself off as an attorney...Now you seem to be implying that you have expertise in engineering. I don't know where you have found time to ride, with all the time you must have spent in graduate school!

Once more, with feeling: everyone seems to agree, for whatever reasons, that the OP's concern is a non-issue. And that is the main thing.

Now Ima go count my "monies." (I've got so much of it that I have to pluralize it.)

rydabent

This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.

70sSanO

There was a time when I would agree with you, and I ride triple road and double mtbs, but the wider cassette range has allowed a 1x to be a viable option.

I do feel that a wide range 1x will result in similar cog gaps as those in the 80’s with doubles. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the fascination with 1t gaps for optimal performance by non-optimal riders is more of a fad.

One day being able to push gears at different cadences will be seen as a strength… and the world goes round and round.

John

veganbikes

The 1x is a passing fad for sure one that started when they first put chains on a bike though back then it was just a bike, they hadn't invented multiple gears yet. 1X1 has been around for a long time and will continue to be around and early on in the development of derailleurs you saw 1x2/3/4/5 in some cases and of course with internally geared hubs you have a 1x as well but yeah let's ignore the entire history of bikes to make ridiculous claims.

I am not hating on a triple they are fine for certain situations but with todays wider range cassettes you can get a good portion of gearing that would would have with a 2x or sometimes even 1x set up. Maybe missing a couple gears in between but with a lot less faff. If you really need a ton of gears, Pinion 18 with a Rohloff 14 and there you go.

Koyote

“Personally” and “you should” are two very different things. Don’t apply your own needs or preferences to other people.

I know plenty of people who can outride me on their single speed bikes - when I’m on a 2x 11 speed. So I suspect that 1x is here for a while. Especially for MTBs.

tyrion

Incorrect. The biggest negative is the extra friction caused by an angled chain. This results in reduced efficiency and extra wear on the drivetrain.

You can define "cross chaining" to mean the chain crossing the "drivetrain centerline" - ok, that sounds good, and by that definition a 1x can't be cross chained, but that sidesteps the important issue: the angle of the chain.

In practice a 1x system is going to have a more angled chain more often.

70sSanO

So I did a quick and dirty calculation that basically took the BB center-to-center to rear axle measurement and 1/2 a cassette width. The CTC varies but around 15.5 to 16 is probably close enough. 400mm splits the difference and is a nice round number. This is pretty rudimentary and is not intended to analyze any other factors. But I wanted to know what angles are we really talking about.

For a 1x11, I used 400mm and 20mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get a roughly calculated angle of 2.86 degrees. Which is the maximum chain angle running at either end of the cassette.

For a 1x6, I used 400mm and 15mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get an angle of 2.15 degrees maximum chain angle.

Just for fun I took a 2x8 setup and cross chained it. Using 400mm and 20.2mm (1/2 cassette width of 17.7 + 2.5mm chainring adjustment) to get an angle of 2.89 degrees. This would be big-big or small-small.

Where does the cross chain "angle" become an issue? Is 2 degrees the limit? 2.5 degrees?

An obvious response is anything beyond a single speed causes theoretical wear.

I was pretty surprised that the angle we are talking about is less than a degree.

John

Joe Bikerider

that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.

Darth Lefty 

Here we are nine years after XX1 came out, and we are still going on about this like it's novel