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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 06-28-22, 06:24 AM
  #526  
mikeoverly
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature.​ ?
Hmm. Spent weeks building up a Chorus 12 bike (requiring Campy "specialist" tools ... star wrenches ... hex wrenches ... hex curses). Spent a half hour assembling a Nuovo Record bike (you can use, like ... just wrenches). Both are lovely. You have a point.
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Old 06-28-22, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeoverly View Post
Hmm. Spent weeks building up a Chorus 12 bike (requiring Campy "specialist" tools ... star wrenches ... hex wrenches ... hex curses). Spent a half hour assembling a Nuovo Record bike (you can use, like ... just wrenches). Both are lovely. You have a point.
What “specialist” tools were required and what is a star wrench?
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Old 06-28-22, 07:47 AM
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Torx and allen wenches are not so special

Thin 15 mm cone wrenches, 32 mm headset wrenches to work on an old bike>>>>>those are special.
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Old 06-28-22, 08:16 AM
  #529  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
What “specialist” tools were required and what is a star wrench?
The $200 Campy chain tool is my favorite. It doesn't even open wine bottles. Star wrenches are Torx wrenches that offer no advantage over hex wrenches, which are Allen wrenches.
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Old 06-28-22, 08:30 AM
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I used my Park chain tool on a Campy 12 speed chain.
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Old 06-28-22, 08:37 AM
  #531  
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Originally Posted by mikeoverly View Post
The $200 Campy chain tool is my favorite. It doesn't even open wine bottles. Star wrenches are Torx wrenches that offer no advantage over hex wrenches, which are Allen wrenches.
1. You don’t need a Campy chain tool. Use a quick link.
2. Torx has been a standard for a long time.
3. Torx wrenches do have advantages over Allen wrenches.
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Old 06-28-22, 10:03 AM
  #532  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I used my Park chain tool on a Campy 12 speed chain.
I have an older Park tool that is sort of a bodge when trying to cut links on these chains. By now I'm sure they have one that does the job fine -- they are generally my go-to.
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Old 06-28-22, 10:07 AM
  #533  
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Originally Posted by mikeoverly View Post
The $200 Campy chain tool is my favorite. It doesn't even open wine bottles. Star wrenches are Torx wrenches that offer no advantage over hex wrenches, which are Allen wrenches.
Torx have many more & more robust contact points than hex wrenches. They will not round out in the way a worn hex would & should the wrong size Torx wrench be used the fastener is not destroyed in the way a hex fastener would be. The bulk of the load bearing surfaces remain for the proper sized tool to act upon.

For reasons of tool wear, ergonomics, serviceability, production costs, & avoided re-work complications, the engineering department at my former employer (aerospace manufacturing) made it a policy to substitute all cross-tip fasteners ("Philips") with Torx on all designs going forward. The use of hex style fasteners was strongly discouraged throughout the production system.

So, Torx do indeed provide tangible, real world benefit.
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Old 06-28-22, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeoverly View Post
Star wrenches are Torx wrenches that offer no advantage over hex wrenches, which are Allen wrenches.
Torx are substantially less prone to stripping/rounding out than allen.
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Old 06-28-22, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Torx have many more & more robust contact points than hex wrenches. They will not round out in the way a worn hex would & should the wrong size Torx wrench be used the fastener is not destroyed in the way a hex fastener would be. The bulk of the load bearing surfaces remain for the proper sized tool to act upon.

For reasons of tool wear, ergonomics, serviceability, production costs, & avoided re-work complications, the engineering department at my former employer (aerospace manufacturing) made it a policy to substitute all cross-tip fasteners ("Philips") with Torx on all designs going forward. The use of hex style fasteners was strongly discouraged throughout the production system.

So, Torx do indeed provide tangible, real world benefit.
Truth be told, I have never stripped a hex head. But then again I have never tried to put an airplane together with a hex wrench.
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Old 06-28-22, 11:23 AM
  #536  
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Originally Posted by mikeoverly View Post
Truth be told, I have never stripped a hex head. But then again I have never tried to put an airplane together with a hex wrench.
Hex socket cap screws strip all the time, especially with smaller sizes, button heads, etc. Consider yourself lucky.
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Old 06-28-22, 12:10 PM
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As much as it irritates me to need yet another wrench, Torx does make a lot of sense.
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Old 06-28-22, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Hex socket cap screws strip all the time, especially with smaller sizes, button heads, etc. Consider yourself lucky.
I’m lucky too.
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Old 06-28-22, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
I’m lucky too.
You’re lucky, he’s lucky, I’m lucky! We’re all lucky!
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Old 06-28-22, 04:24 PM
  #540  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Yeah, a bit confusing, but this is because the Futureshock thing isn't counted as part of the head tube length measurement.
Thank you. I did not know. Springs on a "pro" bike! I wonder what the Pros think. It seems like a gimic to justify the price tag to MAMILs (or OAMILs in my case, not that I have the money).

Perhaps the springs in the Futureshock really does make folks faster but, look at this guy, from the Futureshock (!) explanation page.


His chest is a drag parachute as indeed were many of the racers in the recent British National Championships other than Cavendish who uses a mini bike sizes to small for him, I think.

Now that I have a set of L-shaped (Allen-key-like) Torx wrenches I don't hate them any more.
And I have stripped hex cleat bolts so
I can see their disadvantages.

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Old 06-29-22, 05:40 AM
  #541  
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I just commented on the subject of current bicycle technology somewhere else, and thought of some points that are relevant here too.
25 years ago when I could run a standard lugged-steel bike up into the 23mph bracket for some miles, I asked a local bicycle dealer who raced and sold fancy time-trial equipment how much time all that fancy aero bicycle and helmet and other equipment was worth in a time-trial of a dozen miles or so, and they said "two or three minutes". So even if I dropped the thousands of dollars on high-end equipment it would cost for those two or three minutes, I would still be four or more minutes shy of ever winning a bicycle time-trial race, or any other bicycle race for that matter. So it did not seem to make any sense to spend thousands of dollars to go from being a slow or average bicycle racer, to being a little bit faster slow or average bicycle racer.

If I were close enough for it to make a difference in winning, if on equipment like Eddie Merckx used to set his hour record a half-century ago I could go around 27mph in a TT, then I might win some local races after dropping the thousands on equipment, but as it is someone who can only muster 23 or 24mph on a bike with round steel tubing, would never be able to buy the six or seven mph needed to win anything. I don't mind finishing in the middle of the results of a time-trial today any more than I minded not winning by finishing in the top ten-percent 25 years ago, so it still a few decades later does not seem to make any sense to let participants in an athletic sport buy speed, to let their speed in the event depend on how much money they have instead of how much athletic ability they have, and it certainly does not make sense to feel good about buying speed, especially when it is not competitive anyway. If you are a competitive bicycle racer, you do not have to buy it, a sponsor or team you belong to will.

All super-light materials and patented and copyrighted "aero" technology do is make cycling expensive and it destroys perfectly good older equipment by putting it in danger of no longer being supported in the way of spare parts by manufacturers who have to jump on the lightweight aero bandwagon that exists for no good reason at all.

This is why I get such a kick out of passing up people on the road and in TT races who have spent thousands on their crappy light aero bikes and helmets while riding my old junky ten-speed bicycles. Not because it makes me think I am any better a cyclist or human being, but it has the potential to wake some mindless consumer of the latest bicycle "technology" up to the fact that they are literally being Taken for a Ride.......
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Old 06-29-22, 06:07 AM
  #542  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
This is why I get such a kick out of passing up people on the road and in TT races who have spent thousands on their crappy light aero bikes and helmets while riding my old junky ten-speed bicycles. Not because it makes me think I am any better a cyclist or human being, but it has the potential to wake some mindless consumer of the latest bicycle "technology" up to the fact that they are literally being Taken for a Ride.......
I get a kick out of guys that clearly take pride in passing me when I'm on a recovery ride or winding down from a long day in the saddle. It's cute that they think I'm working hard and I hate to disabuse them of the notion and rob them of their moment of glory.
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Old 06-29-22, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
This is why I get such a kick out of passing up people on the road and in TT races who have spent thousands on their crappy light aero bikes and helmets while riding my old junky ten-speed bicycles.
Just judging by looking at your bikes, and the way they seem to be maintained (or more likely not), and also by how often you tell us how fast you are, I'm just gong to outright say it: I don't believe a word you write.

Last edited by smd4; 06-29-22 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 06-29-22, 06:30 AM
  #544  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I get a kick out of guys that clearly take pride in passing me when I'm on a recovery ride or winding down from a long day in the saddle. It's cute that they think I'm working hard and I hate to disabuse them of the notion and rob them of their moment of glory.
CAT 6 racers.
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Old 06-29-22, 06:33 AM
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OP: “This is about non-competitive riding”
Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
[bunch of stuff about racing]
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Old 06-29-22, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I get a kick out of guys that clearly take pride in passing me when I'm on a recovery ride or winding down from a long day in the saddle. It's cute that they think I'm working hard and I hate to disabuse them of the notion and rob them of their moment of glory.

I had the funniest race that never was experience along these lines a couple months ago. I was riding on a state highway with a very long straight flat section so I could see very far ahead. I was about 93 miles into a century. For about 2 miles, I could see a lone cyclist who was initially quite some distance ahead of me at first, but I steadily gained on him and then passed him. I had to go on the wrong side of a rumble strip on a 55 mph road to do it so I made sure our speed differential was high before I went into the pass. I announced it and pulled the pass off very quickly (had to time it for the gaps in the rumble strip--I know this road like the back of my hand), at which time he uttered some sort of protest that I couldn't quite make out, except for the word "but". I'm riding at the same 20+ mph pace ahead of him for the next mile or so, then out of nowhere, he's suddenly zipping past me on the wrong side of the rumble strip. All fine except for the fact that we were about 25 feet from a red light when he passed and when we reached it, he actually turned off into a parking lot and hopped off of the bike panting like an overheated sheepdog, but giving me his version of a triumphant glare. I think I managed to stifle my laughter until I was actually past him. Didn't want to spoil his imaginary glory.
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Old 06-29-22, 08:06 AM
  #547  
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Was he riding an ancient Huffy with electrical tape for cable guides??
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Old 06-29-22, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Was he riding an ancient Huffy with electrical tape for cable guides??

He looked to be about 25-30 years younger than that guy, and was very, very kitted with a new-looking road bike (I didn't actually check out the bike). I think my white hair might've triggered the "how dare you pass" reaction.
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Old 06-30-22, 07:46 PM
  #549  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Just judging by looking at your bikes, and the way they seem to be maintained (or more likely not), and also by how often you tell us how fast you are, I'm just gong to outright say it: I don't believe a word you write.
You don't have to believe anything. I am entered in a time-trial in a week and a half I last ran 25 years ago and you can look at the results here, I finished 40th out of 401 entrants riding a 12-speed Motobecane.. https://www.highmarkquad.org/backup/pdf/1997b.pdf I am not going to go that fast or finish that high this time around, I am sixty years old and have had a heart attack, but you will be able to look up the results for this year too, and I will not be finishing the course in 33 minutes like I did then, but should have no problem running it in 38 or 39 minutes as long as it is not a very windy day. Do you like crow ???
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Old 06-30-22, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
You don't have to believe anything. I am entered in a time-trial in a week and a half I last ran 25 years ago and you can look at the results here, I finished 40th out of 401 entrants riding a 12-speed Motobecane..
Oh! You rode a 12 speed Motobecane and not your favorite 10 speed Huffy? Interesting.

Last edited by smd4; 06-30-22 at 08:06 PM.
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