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a lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 06-30-21, 09:23 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Disc brakes are here to stay.
I don't think anyone will argue with that. But rim preservation isn't the reason.

Cheers.
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Old 06-30-21, 10:09 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
I don't think anyone will argue with that. But rim preservation isn't the reason.

Cheers.
I agree.

I honestly didnít want 10 pages arguing which braking system is better.

Rim wear is a safe position that canít really be argued.

John
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Old 06-30-21, 10:12 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post

Rims can develop cracks at the spoke holes, regardless of brake type.


Aluminum rims will fatigue crack like that, if ridden long enough.

Carbon rims, not so much.
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Old 06-30-21, 10:35 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Because they stop better in wet conditions.



Rims can develop cracks at the spoke holes, regardless of brake type.


Oh, that happened to my mtn bike when we were riding in Moab. Putting the bike on the roof rack and tightening the hold down strap I noticed a few cracks just like that. Drove from the trail straight to a bike shop. New rim.
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Old 06-30-21, 11:05 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by kahn View Post
Oh, that happened to my mtn bike when we were riding in Moab. Putting the bike on the roof rack and tightening the hold down strap I noticed a few cracks just like that. Drove from the trail straight to a bike shop. New rim.
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Aluminum rims will fatigue crack like that, if ridden long enough.

Mavic Open Pro CDs, Kysriums, and Salsa Delgados were all infamously prone to cracking at the spoke holes. Some say it was the anodizing.

Kahn -- hope you went to Rim Cyclery in Moab!
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Old 06-30-21, 11:16 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Mavic Open Pro CDs, Kysriums, and Salsa Delgados were all infamously prone to cracking at the spoke holes. Some say it was the anodizing.
Sure, hard anodizing is known to reduce the fatigue life of highly stressed aluminum. And spoke holes are high stress areas.

But all aluminum rims will fail if they're ridden long enough. Hard anodizing just makes them fail sooner.
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Old 07-01-21, 08:19 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Mavic Open Pro CDs, Kysriums, and Salsa Delgados were all infamously prone to cracking at the spoke holes. Some say it was the anodizing.

Kahn -- hope you went to Rim Cyclery in Moab!
It is too long ago to remember. Do I remember a Poison Spider shop??? He was originally going to sell me an entire back wheel and freewheel. I remember he walked out to the car and noted my equipment (whatever it was) and said that he could not match and than he would rebuilt the entire wheel with a new rim rather than selling me a downgrade.

I was anything but a mt biker! I probably pushed my bike through about half of the Red/Rim rock trail. Did Monitor/Merrimac. Rode the old road up into Arches and around Courthouse Wash???? Joined the paved road near Balanced Rock, perhaps? I recall one terrific fall - into a creek where for the first time in decades I knocked all the air out of my lungs and trying to breathe, Like when I was a kid who fell on his chest and did the same. I also remember descending into some creek bed on a curvy trail and up the other side. I watched as some guy did it and looked like he was on skis smoothly navigating the entire curvy descent and up the curvy other side. It was an interesting trip. We also hiked - much more my element.
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Old 07-01-21, 11:04 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by kahn View Post
It is too long ago to remember. Do I remember a Poison Spider shop???
Yep. Last time I was in Moab, Poison Spider was still there.
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Old 07-01-21, 11:24 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Yep. Last time I was in Moab, Poison Spider was still there.
Oh, good. This memory goes back, at least, twenty years! (g)
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Old 07-02-21, 09:50 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by kahn View Post
Did Monitor/Merrimac. Rode the old road up into Arches and around Courthouse Wash??
Monitor & Merrimack is awesome - especially once you get to the monoliths. On the way back, you ride past Determination Towers. Spectacular area. I’ve done the old Arches road, too — out where Ed Abbey used to live when he was a ranger there.

After many mountain biking trips there in the 90s, I also took up hiking — challenging and not as thrilling, but some of the areas where bikes aren’t permitted are well worth the effort.

Apologies to all for the thread hijack.

Last edited by Rolla; 07-02-21 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 07-02-21, 08:02 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Apologies to all for the thread hijack.
Donít worry, it was an improvement.
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Old 07-02-21, 08:08 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Apologies to all for the thread hijack.
Why the heck did you wait so long?
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Old 07-02-21, 10:59 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Donít worry, it was an improvement.
Well, then back to Moab.

That bike trip was 1997 - almost a quarter century ago. I've been back subsequently but not for biking.
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Old 07-02-21, 11:59 PM
  #139  
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I wonder if the OP has actually ridden both newer and older bikes.

I have both a road bike from the... well, late 60's. With several updates over the years.

And, I built up my first carbon fiber bike a couple of years ago (with a frame from the late 90's, and newer components).

Wow, riding the CF bike, it just felt like a bike should feel (I suppose I should try an even newer one).

My old toe clips.. I was happy enough with them. But, much happier when I changed over to SPD pedals.

I never liked braking from the hoods with the old Universal brakes. But, it is just so natural with the new brake levers.

I ride from the bar tops... and the flattened "aero" bar tops are much more comfortable than the round ones.

I haven't gone to disc yet, but the new(ish) Ultegra 6800 dual pivot brake calipers are very good.

Man, I got a lot of flats with the Sewups. New tires are just better.

I just never was satisfied with the 13T or 14T high end on the old freewheels. I suppose it is a bit of my riding style, but the newer cassettes work nice.

I have some touring upgrades planed. The old bike is just so flexy in the rear end. Hopefully I can eventually solve that issue.

I still like the old bike... but some new stuff is well... just better. Not everything. I think many of the cassettes wear faster than the freewheels. But, a lot is very good.
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Old 07-03-21, 12:54 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
OP is apparently an anti-snob snob. Something that makes the activity more enjoyable isn't allowed?
This.
OP also has issues with bike shops in million dollar neighborhoods because he canít afford or use a truing stand.
Bargain hunters sure are odd ducks
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Old 07-03-21, 05:13 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I wonder if the OP has actually ridden both newer and older bikes.

I have both a road bike from the... well, late 60's. With several updates over the years.

And, I built up my first carbon fiber bike a couple of years ago (with a frame from the late 90's, and newer components).

Wow, riding the CF bike, it just felt like a bike should feel (I suppose I should try an even newer one).

My old toe clips.. I was happy enough with them. But, much happier when I changed over to SPD pedals.

I never liked braking from the hoods with the old Universal brakes. But, it is just so natural with the new brake levers.

I ride from the bar tops... and the flattened "aero" bar tops are much more comfortable than the round ones.

I haven't gone to disc yet, but the new(ish) Ultegra 6800 dual pivot brake calipers are very good.

Man, I got a lot of flats with the Sewups. New tires are just better.

I just never was satisfied with the 13T or 14T high end on the old freewheels. I suppose it is a bit of my riding style, but the newer cassettes work nice.

I have some touring upgrades planed. The old bike is just so flexy in the rear end. Hopefully I can eventually solve that issue.

I still like the old bike... but some new stuff is well... just better. Not everything. I think many of the cassettes wear faster than the freewheels. But, a lot is very good.
My first CF bike was a mid-late 90s Cadex (round carbon tubes bonded to alloy head tube, BB etc.). It was a very good ride, but modem monocoque carbon bikes are a big improvement in both efficiency and comfort. Although itís hard to know how much of that improvement is from the frame vs modem tyre technology. But from a pure engineering POV modem carbon frames are light years ahead of those early bonded carbon/alloy efforts. My Cadex still had an alloy fork too, which I remember feeling a bit harsh. It would be interesting to ride one of those bikes today just to feel the difference directly back-to-back.
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Old 07-03-21, 05:16 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I wonder if the OP has actually ridden both newer and older bikes.
Hard to say. The OP has replied twice to this threadÖonce to mention televisions and stereos and again to mention automobiles.
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Old 07-03-21, 06:07 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
Hard to say. The OP has replied twice to this threadÖonce to mention televisions and stereos and again to mention automobiles.
Probably having trouble with his dial-up internet connection.
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Old 07-03-21, 06:44 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
As an interesting aside- there just wasn't a whole lot of innovations with the bicycle, between saying 1950 to 1980. This was the TdF winning bike from 1947:

Coppi

TdF bikes from 1978:

Hinault

The bikes look really similar - with steel lugged frame, down tube shifted derailleurs, toe strap pedals, tubular tires and side pull caliper brakes. There just wasn't too much in the way of innovations during those years. In a sense, a lot of what we think of as 'classic bikes', are a product of those 30-40 years of stagnation.
In the early 80's there was a big push towards aerodynamics. From there we had an explosion of new technology from the mid 80's to mid 90's- aero brakes, hidden cable routing, dual pivot brakes, brifters, clipless pedals, carbon fiber, aluminum, titanium, etc.... Again from the mid 2000's to the present time we have yet another big wave of innovations with electronic shifting, power meters, tubeless tires, hollow cranks, carbon fiber wheels, aero everything.

So one could think of the circa 1980 'classic bike' as a time tested, timeless, well rounded product, or you could also think of it as a hopeless dinosaur from an era of stagnation.
You have clearly never been on a bicycle with 1947 sidepulls.

By 1980 pros were often riding bicycles lighter than what the rules allow today.

Hollow cranks existed in the 1930s.

Stagnation is what you see from your perspective. You are simply wrong.
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Old 07-03-21, 09:28 AM
  #145  
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One can look at the modern iteration of technology as progress in performance (braking, shifting) but regression in the sense of user cost and repairabiliry.

Modern bikes I think will become "disposable" in the sense of proprietary parts that become unobtainable if the parent company folds or in the sense of repurchazing an updated model when problems begin to occur (it's cheaper to buy a new bike than fix it).

They will also become more reliant on professional mechanics to service systems than repairs/adjustments that can be done at home by the consumer. Hydraulic brakes, electronic shifting, pneumatic shocks, tubeless tires.

I'm sure someone will say they service those things themselves but more and more people take bikes into shops for that. Partially it's specialization and partially it's scale. Someone might venture to home repair a $300 bike but is less likely for a $3000 bike.

Modern bikes do perform better but at an ancillary cost.

There is a whole subset of rider who eshues modern technology on purpose, SS/FG.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-03-21 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-03-21, 09:51 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
By 1980 pros were often riding bicycles lighter than what the rules allow today.
A sub-15 pound, complete road bike, made in 1980?

I would really like to see an example of that. I've read of 18-lb bikes of that era, but nothing below 15 lbs.
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Old 07-03-21, 10:42 AM
  #147  
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The driving force in the bicycle industry is to make cyclists buy more bicycles and associated gear in order to make more money. The innovations in bike technology have been for the most part good, but few have been necessary. I could have sent the rest of my life on bikes with rim brakes, but now they are fairly uncommon as hydraulic discs are everywhere. Who really needs all the high tech stuff that brings bicycle costs into the thousands?

Another push in the industry is to make cyclists lust after speed so that they will buy the latest gear to shave off a few grams of weight and improve their "times." Titanium bolts and that sort of stuff are expensive and, for the most part, fairly useless.

Most of the cyclists I know and see aren't concerned with high tech innovations or with speed. They simply like to ride their bikes.

But no one compels cyclists to buy new stuff. If you want to and have the money, there you go. If you like some of the latest innovations, they are there to buy. No harm done. I do wish, however, that bicycles weren't so expensive.
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Old 07-03-21, 10:55 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
A sub-15 pound, complete road bike, made in 1980?

I would really like to see an example of that. I've read of 18-lb bikes of that era, but nothing below 15 lbs.
Andre Sabliere bikes as ridden by Sean Kelly weighed in at 5.5 kilos including saddle, pedals, toe clips and straps, two bottle cages. Wohlhauser equipped a couple teams with fair copies of the Sabliere design that weighed maybe a hundred grams more in the aluminum frame and another kilo by not having all the handmade parts de Gribaldy found for Kelly.

Eddy Merckx even earlier raced road bikes at 6.5 kilos. And they had to stand up to Eddy. Made by various builders in steel. Why would that be hard? We are talking race bikes, not extrapolating from Raleigh Pros or PX-10s. Just lots of bikes weighed under 18 pounds and those would have been available even in the 60s.

I know these bikes by virtue of having been alive when those bikes were made. Reading what moderns know of things that happened before they were born is amusing.
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Old 07-03-21, 11:52 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
I know these bikes by virtue of having been alive when those bikes were made. Reading what moderns know of things that happened before they were born is amusing.
I am not a "modern". I had completed my undergrad by 1980.
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Old 07-03-21, 12:18 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post

And with cartridge bearings, wheels could last a lifetime.

John
Today I rode my bike with cartridge bearing hubs made in 1960. No, not the phenomenally heavy Maxicar hubs, Sanshin hubs from Japan.

Also have two bikes with 1930s FB hubs. All service parts interchangeable with Campagnolo Tipo. You could say I have hubs that have lasted a lifetime.
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