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a lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 07-03-21, 12:58 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by jackb View Post
The driving force in the bicycle industry is to make cyclists buy more bicycles and associated gear in order to make more money. The innovations in bike technology have been for the most part good, but few have been necessary. I could have sent the rest of my life on bikes with rim brakes, but now they are fairly uncommon as hydraulic discs are everywhere. Who really needs all the high tech stuff that brings bicycle costs into the thousands?

Another push in the industry is to make cyclists lust after speed so that they will buy the latest gear to shave off a few grams of weight and improve their "times." Titanium bolts and that sort of stuff are expensive and, for the most part, fairly useless.

Most of the cyclists I know and see aren't concerned with high tech innovations or with speed. They simply like to ride their bikes.

But no one compels cyclists to buy new stuff. If you want to and have the money, there you go. If you like some of the latest innovations, they are there to buy. No harm done. I do wish, however, that bicycles weren't so expensive.
Very good post. The bike companies have to make money somehow. Actual innovation is rare. Like all hobbies, the enthusiasts are always looking for the next "thing". In cycling it's all about weight reduction and speed. I just bought titanium quick releases. Do I actually NEED them? No. The old ones are a little rusty so I wanted to get a new pair. Will they actually do anything better than what I already have? No? But for $35 I said what the heck. I'm a bit of a weight-weenie. Don't know why some people seem to have a problem with how other people spend their money.
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Old 07-03-21, 02:21 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Don't know why some people seem to have a problem with how other people spend their money.
I have no problem with how informed people spend their money.

It's uninformed people being sold fancy stuff that only increases their cost of ownership that I take issue with.

Why someone else decided that needed its own thread is beyond me.
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Old 07-03-21, 02:33 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
I have no problem with how informed people spend their money.

It's uninformed people being sold fancy stuff that only increases their cost of ownership that I take issue with.
What if the uninformed people are just following the lead of the informed people? Would that be okay?
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Old 07-03-21, 04:10 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
I have no problem with how informed people spend their money.

It's uninformed people being sold fancy stuff that only increases their cost of ownership that I take issue with.

Why someone else decided that needed its own thread is beyond me.
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Old 07-03-21, 04:13 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
I have no problem with how informed people spend their money.

It's uninformed people being sold fancy stuff that only increases their cost of ownership that I take issue with.

Why someone else decided that needed its own thread is beyond me.
How are you determining if they’re informed or uninformed?
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Old 07-03-21, 05:11 PM
  #156  
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For me, I'm looking for things that make my riding more enjoyable. Faster is not on the table due to a bum ticker. Looking at my MTB and gravel bike, there are a few things that do that. There are a few things that I bought just because they were in-style at the time of purchase, especially on the MTB. There are a few things that go well together as a whole package and aren't so good if you do only one or two of them (like the combination of tubeless tires, thru axles, hydraulic disc brakes). I would not tell you that I think these bikes are perfect and solve everything, or that there's nothing to be nostalgic about. But overall it's better.

I do think that bike companies keep old-school stuff in production just to provide a reason for different price levels for things that are likely not all that different in cost to make. Tubeless is a good example of this, so is the price of 3x systems somehow being less than 1x
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Old 07-03-21, 05:20 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by UniChris
I have no problem with how informed people spend their money.

It's uninformed people being sold fancy stuff that only increases their cost of ownership that I take issue with.

Why someone else decided that needed its own thread is beyond me.

Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
How are you determining if they’re informed or uninformed?
That's easy. Informed people spend their money the way you do. Uninformed people buy things that you don't want or need.
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Old 07-03-21, 05:54 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post

That's easy. Informed people spend their money the way you do. Uninformed people buy things that you don't want or need.
Prezactly!
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Old 07-04-21, 06:28 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
I've posted on other threads about my 25.5 mile midweek route, which I've ridden with 7 different bikes now. There's 4 minutes difference in best time between my newest bike (2020) and my oldest (1982). Same route, same rider, similar effort (based solely on HR, since they don't make power meters for Dura Ace 7200 cranks). Basically a 5% difference.
FWIW, on flat ground it would take a roughly 15% higher power output to gain 5% in speed (using somewhere in the very low 200's watts output as a base). That is not inconsequential.

FWIW, I view the shifting mechanisms now vs the 70's/80's as absolutely huge.

dave
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Old 07-05-21, 11:58 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Moving the shifting mechanisms from the downtube to the bars is the kind of simple, low consequence thing that could be done in isolation.

Index shifting on the other hand - it might lower rider skill needs a tiny bit, but it's also another dimension that now needs to be kept in adjustment sending the bike to the shop. Most consumers wouldn't dare touch those screws.

But even if it's on your worthwhile list, it's again an inexpensive to initially implement, isolated change.
Should almost never need to touch 'the screws' to re-align index shifting - any changes are almost always due to cable tension tension changes due to housing compression into the plastic ferrules. While these occasional adjustments might require a shop/pro mechanic to perform them if a rider doesn't have the mechanical/technical know-how to DIY - that cost is very low compared to the price of a doctor's office visit (or even just the hassle of enduring road rash) that could happen from the loss of control while futzing with a downtube friction shifter. Especially compared with the instant shift you can execute with 'brifters' while keeping both hands on the handlebars. FWIW, I like the ride of a slightly older high-quality steel frame, which I have rebuilt with somewhat more modern 2x10 equipment with dual-pivot calipers, etc... Had a number of very nice carbon bikes (Trek Madone, Cervelo R-Series, Specialized Roubaix) and while they are nice and very light, I'm not racing and a kilo or two won't kill me. Plus, I kinda prefer the 'spring' you get from the steel.
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Old 07-05-21, 12:15 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Right? By the logic of these types of threads we should all be content with our 16" screen B&W Zenith televisions and AM mono car radios.

I abandoned my radioamateuring days when first transistors and then integrated chips pushed out the tubes

Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn View Post
...You also have a lot of boneheads that say a vinyl record is superior to a compact disc and that is just absurd. ...
Yeah, it is mind boggling that young folks are crazy about LP's these days. There is no scientific reasoning for that.
Well, the vacuum tubes had a soul and the same goes for LP vinyl records.
Many still watch those old movies from 1930s, 40s with poor picture, never mind the sound and if those were somehow re-mastered to look and sound up to date, they would lose most of the appeal they have. Well, the sound is often atrocious and those auto generated close captions are more than useless, but hey... it is all nostalgia or move to retro as a fashion.

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Old 07-05-21, 12:37 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature.​ ?
This is my approach.
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Old 07-05-21, 12:56 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
As an interesting aside- there just wasn't a whole lot of innovations with the bicycle, between saying 1950 to 1980. This was the TdF winning bike from 1947:

Coppi

TdF bikes from 1978:

So one could think of the circa 1980 'classic bike' as a time tested, timeless, well rounded product, or you could also think of it as a hopeless dinosaur from an era of stagnation.
My bike from circa 1975 is exactly like Coppi's, in appearance anyway.

Even if the your claim above was disputed here, I would think that thanks to that long period of tech stagnation, we had seen those virtual works of art on wheel hubs and frame lugs and many other components. I agree with the other poster here, that if you put today's TDF guys on these 1978 bikes, they would fare pretty well almost the same.
I wonder if we could have such historic TDF re-enactment one day, with the current pros doing it.
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Old 07-05-21, 01:15 PM
  #164  
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I got my "new" steel framed (independent fabrication) bike in 2007, making it 29 years newer than yours. And I suspect Ithat I like it's brakes and shifting and other bits better than i would on a 1978 bike....i know I ilke them way better than on the Peguot I had in 1971.
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Old 07-05-21, 01:29 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
These types of posts crack me up. Does *anyone* actually *need* a bike? No. Walking or running work fine. We *could* all be riding single speed beach cruisers! I think the average consumer is pretty smart at determining their need, and assessing the value of different features/materials/technologies.

And all my bicycle tools are pretty simple. Now I'm wondering what complicated tools I might be missing...and if they're available in a high-performance lightweight carbon version that cost more!
MattTheHat said "Does anyone actually need a bike? No.

I beg to differ, I have been in the situation where a bike was the only way I could hold dpwn a particular job because of the commute distance and my finances.. I am not alone. But people like that probably are not on this forum, or maybe any forum. Just saying.
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Old 07-05-21, 02:38 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
I abandoned my radioamateuring days when first transistors and then integrated chips pushed out the tubes



Well, the vacuum tubes had a soul and the same goes for LP vinyl records.
Many still watch those old movies from 1930s, 40s with poor picture, never mind the sound and if those were somehow re-mastered to look and sound up to date, they would lose most of the appeal they have. Well, the sound is often atrocious and those auto generated close captions are more than useless, but hey... it is all nostalgia or move to retro as a fashion.

I have no idea what you are talking about with old movies. Optical sound was actually fairly high quality and has transferred to digital quite nicely. As for "poor picture" , that's absurd unless you're one of those "black & white is automatically bad" people. Seriously, learn something about cinematography before you'd say anything as silly as they'd lose their appeal if remastered. Watch TCM for a day and tell us those prints haven't been restored to pristine through remastering and are a hell of a lot more fun to watch than the worn-out prints that used to tour theatres and get shown on TV.

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Old 07-05-21, 02:55 PM
  #167  
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It seems Americans pay more for bicycles than people in most parts of the world. Part of this is due to a large proportion of Americans wanting the latest high tech bikes. I am not saying it doesn't happen everywhere to some extent. It just seems a higher proportion of Americans think like that.
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Old 07-05-21, 03:22 PM
  #168  
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I love my carbon bikes, I love my steel bikes, I even enjoy my aluminum bike. Not especially fond of my one downtube friction shift, but like the bar end friction shifts. I enjoy my Di2, and the other integrated "brifters". Disc brakes work for me, as well as rim brakes on the older bikes. It all depends what mood I'm in that day. Choice is a good thing, not always based on economics. I buy and build my bikes to ride, not as an investment, and spend very little time worrying what other preferences people spend their money on. I used to really enjoy passing guys on fancy carbon, while riding my old school steel, until I became the guy riding carbon. Now I hate getting passed by e-bikes, but that's life. No plans to go "e" yet ... I'm only 72. Buy what you want, love what you ride ... but just ride.

Been riding this Legnano since new in 1964.

Built this Raleigh from an abandoned stripped frame.

My newest bike, Di2, discs, carbon everything ... its all good, just ride.
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Old 07-05-21, 03:46 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by dkatz1 View Post
I got my "new" steel framed (independent fabrication) bike in 2007, making it 29 years newer than yours. And I suspect Ithat I like it's brakes and shifting and other bits better than i would on a 1978 bike....i know I ilke them way better than on the Peguot I had in 1971.
I probably got my Peugeot maybe a year earlier. Some "fancy" bike shop on the east side of Manhattan.
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Old 07-05-21, 03:49 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1 View Post
Would you prefer a 1978 car over a newer model?
Yep. There are very few late model cars I'd actually own, versus dream about. If it comes with more than what my 08 CVPI had; it's doing too much.
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Old 07-05-21, 10:55 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1 View Post
Would you prefer a 1978 car over a newer model?
The most expensive collectable Australian cars are from the early 70s. I suspect it might be similar in America. How valuable is a Mustang or Corvette from the early 70s?

We don't normally drive them as daily drivers these days, because they are too expensive.
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Old 07-06-21, 05:05 AM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
It seems Americans pay more for bicycles than people in most parts of the world. Part of this is due to a large proportion of Americans wanting the latest high tech bikes. I am not saying it doesn't happen everywhere to some extent. It just seems a higher proportion of Americans think like that.
No reason to be so jealous
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Old 07-06-21, 06:26 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
No reason to be so jealous
I am sure you would love to pay the prices I can buy things for here. For example, I am running a new derailleur which cost $2.25, and a new chain which cost $1.40.

I read about people asking how much you need to pay for a decent mountain bike in America. Most will say something over $1000. Maybe a good price for a decent, but not too expensive, mountain bike would be $2000. A lot of people pay around $250 to $300 for a fairly decent mountain bike here. Let's say you want something even better, it would still be well under $1000. I am close to where the bikes are manufactured. Most of the cost in America is transport and profit. I get shocked how much things really cost.

You can get a good indication of prices if you search alababa.

Keep in mind, most bikes sold in America are made in Asia. The same bikes are much cheaper in Asia.
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Old 07-06-21, 09:12 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
The most expensive collectable Australian cars are from the early 70s. I suspect it might be similar in America. How valuable is a Mustang or Corvette from the early 70s?

We don't normally drive them as daily drivers these days, because they are too expensive.
American cars of the 60s through about 1972 are the most collectable. Any sporty car from that era - pony cars, muscle cars, sports cars - all crazy expensive. And of course, the number each model produced with what specifications is known, and so the rare ones get even more ridiculous prices. After '72, American cars kept getting worse year after year, not really recovering till about 2000. Nowadays they're pretty good. Of course, so are everyone else's cars.

So, yeah, a 1978 car would not be very desirable. Maybe collectable as a novelty?
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Old 07-06-21, 09:34 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
I am sure you would love to pay the prices I can buy things for here. For example, I am running a new derailleur which cost $2.25, and a new chain which cost $1.40.

I read about people asking how much you need to pay for a decent mountain bike in America. Most will say something over $1000. Maybe a good price for a decent, but not too expensive, mountain bike would be $2000. A lot of people pay around $250 to $300 for a fairly decent mountain bike here. Let's say you want something even better, it would still be well under $1000. I am close to where the bikes are manufactured. Most of the cost in America is transport and profit. I get shocked how much things really cost.

You can get a good indication of prices if you search alababa.

Keep in mind, most bikes sold in America are made in Asia. The same bikes are much cheaper in Asia.
Your problem is working out what is real vs fake.
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