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Behind the scenes of Giant / Liv / Cadex

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Behind the scenes of Giant / Liv / Cadex

Old 07-12-21, 08:35 PM
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Coppi51
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Behind the scenes of Giant / Liv / Cadex

Hi All,

LONG time member, but haven't posted for more than 10 years. I am the design director for Giant Bicycle in Taiwan. We recently started a new Instagram account showcasing much of the development work we do @cyclinginnovation

Sketches, renderings, 3D development, graphics, etc. Below are some examples of the content we have been posting.

If you are interested, please follow us @cyclinginnovation ! Happy to answer any questions on here as well...although I cannot say when your new bike might arrive...we are still behind on production due to the bike boom!

Cheers,
Erik



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Old 07-12-21, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Coppi51 View Post
Hi All,

LONG time member, but haven't posted for more than 10 years. I am the design director for Giant Bicycle in Taiwan. We recently started a new Instagram account showcasing much of the development work we do @cyclinginnovation

Sketches, renderings, 3D development, graphics, etc. Below are some examples of the content we have been posting.

If you are interested, please follow us @cyclinginnovation ! Happy to answer any questions on here as well...although I cannot say when your new bike might arrive...we are still behind on production due to the bike boom!

Cheers,
Erik



If you could add some more deep reds, and predominately white bikes with the Giant logo in various colours, it would be a vast improvement over all the black & grey bikes that look so bland and that literally every manufacturer has been pumping out in recent years.

Also need more blues, green and orange bikes.
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Old 07-12-21, 09:07 PM
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No more proprietary seat-posts or odd non-standard rack mounts (Anyroad had 'em and maybe others I cannot remember it was a while back). I could go further but those are what really ground my gears when we were a Giant dealer that I couldn't really say for other brands we sold or currently sell (aside from some e-bikes with integrated rack/fender combos which aren't so egregious) The photos and stuff are cool though!
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Old 07-13-21, 01:52 AM
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Thanks guys. Yeah, the color discussion is always a tough one. We have 1 global lineup and 20+ countries giving input.

You would not believe how different every market is on their perception of color, haha.

Anyway, we'll keep trying to push for the best combinations!
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Old 07-14-21, 01:14 PM
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Coppi, it's very generous of you to post here and share. Thanks for your time!
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Old 07-14-21, 04:17 PM
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Coppi, thanks for putting your neck on the block -- er, giving us the inside scoop.

The thing that has bothered me for a very long time is that 99.5% of non-custom bikes insist on putting long cranks and big wheels on even their smallest frames. You would think that Liv, at least, would cater to us average-sized women, but no. I'm 5'4" tall, exactly average for a woman, and it's impossible to find a modern bike that fits me. I have a 2016 Liv Rove (the one year without shocks), and I haven't ridden it in 3 years, ever since I swung my leg over a 26"-wheeled bike; a 1992 Specialized RockHopper. It has a too long top tube, and I still haven't replaced the cranks, but it felt like coming home. It's now my commuter/explorer/main transport and does everything I want it to do. I want a modern bike like this; 26" wheels with 160 mm cranks. Can you deliver?


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Old 07-14-21, 06:33 PM
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I have been a Giant fan for years, and only a rare closeout deal stood between me and a Defy.

This is just a commercial for Giant .... but I like Giant so I am fine with it.

However, I don't do Instagram.

Thanks very much (to Giant) for sharing this stuff anyway. I have always liked Giant's value compared to its rivals, and this idea about reaching out to prospective customers and cycling lovers in general is a smart marketing idea as well as a useful service for both parties. Giant gets people excited and feeling involved, and people who feel involved will talk about the brand with their friends.

So .... both, "Good mov,e" and "Thanks."
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Old 07-20-21, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I have been a Giant fan for years, and only a rare closeout deal stood between me and a Defy.

This is just a commercial for Giant .... but I like Giant so I am fine with it.

However, I don't do Instagram.

Thanks very much (to Giant) for sharing this stuff anyway. I have always liked Giant's value compared to its rivals, and this idea about reaching out to prospective customers and cycling lovers in general is a smart marketing idea as well as a useful service for both parties. Giant gets people excited and feeling involved, and people who feel involved will talk about the brand with their friends.

So .... both, "Good mov,e" and "Thanks."

Thanks for being a Giant fan, we appreciate it!
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Old 07-20-21, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Korina View Post
Coppi, thanks for putting your neck on the block -- er, giving us the inside scoop.

The thing that has bothered me for a very long time is that 99.5% of non-custom bikes insist on putting long cranks and big wheels on even their smallest frames. You would think that Liv, at least, would cater to us average-sized women, but no. I'm 5'4" tall, exactly average for a woman, and it's impossible to find a modern bike that fits me. I have a 2016 Liv Rove (the one year without shocks), and I haven't ridden it in 3 years, ever since I swung my leg over a 26"-wheeled bike; a 1992 Specialized RockHopper. It has a too long top tube, and I still haven't replaced the cranks, but it felt like coming home. It's now my commuter/explorer/main transport and does everything I want it to do. I want a modern bike like this; 26" wheels with 160 mm cranks. Can you deliver?


Hi Korina - Thanks for the background info. Yes, in some cases modern bikes have steered away from 26inch or even 650b for different series. In turn, this has eliminated some smaller rider possibilities. We try to take all global measurements into our development and in most cases can meet the demands of stack, reach, etc.

Have you looked at any of our recent Rove series geometries? I realize it is not 26inch, but the XS frame size might still be an option with proper fitting. My wife is 5'2 and rides an XS:
https://www.liv-cycling.com/us/bikes-rove-2021

Cheers!
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Old 07-20-21, 11:26 PM
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Wife’s bike is a Giant WSD type, and I had an RS940 as a kid and loved it. Her next will likely be a Liv. Keep doing what you do!

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Old 07-21-21, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Coppi51 View Post
Hi Korina - Thanks for the background info. Yes, in some cases modern bikes have steered away from 26inch or even 650b for different series. In turn, this has eliminated some smaller rider possibilities. We try to take all global measurements into our development and in most cases can meet the demands of stack, reach, etc.

Have you looked at any of our recent Rove series geometries? I realize it is not 26inch, but the XS frame size might still be an option with proper fitting. My wife is 5'2 and rides an XS:
https://www.liv-cycling.com/us/bikes-rove-2021

Cheers!
Highlighted: And that's your problem. You've managed to convince yourself that Westerners are SOO much bigger than Asians that you have just started making bikes bigger for customers that you "imagine" that you have without understanding that MANY Westerners are no larger than asians are in reality.

Here's the thing. The Western women who truly are taller, can and will ride mens bikes, no problems.

Giant actually HAS made improvements for small people yet you have confined the advances to the Juvenile range.
The Giant ARX 24, has the correct fundamental geometry, in just about EVERY detail, for adults up to 5' or so.
The frame angles are good, the crank length is right. All it really needs is a taller head tube and longer seatpost and it would be just right. I ride one myself at 5'1". Currently the bike as made is chopped low, which I corrected with a riser stem and a long seatpost.
The market for womens bikes for Western women who are no taller than asian women is HUGE. Then factor in how many asians live in the West these days and there is a HUGE market that you are ignoring.

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Old 07-21-21, 01:21 PM
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Coppi, thanks for putting your neck on the block -- er, giving us the inside scoop.

The thing that has bothered me for a very long time is that 99.5% of non-custom bikes insist on putting long cranks and big wheels on even their smallest frames. You would think that Liv, at least, would cater to us average-sized women, but no. I'm 5'4" tall, exactly average for a woman, and it's impossible to find a modern bike that fits me. I have a 2016 Liv Rove (the one year without shocks), and I haven't ridden it in 3 years, ever since I swung my leg over a 26"-wheeled bike; a 1992 Specialized RockHopper. It has a too long top tube, and I still haven't replaced the cranks, but it felt like coming home. It's now my commuter/explorer/main transport and does everything I want it to do. I want a modern bike like this; 26" wheels with 160 mm cranks. Can you deliver?
Hi, why can't you just change out your cranks into a 160mm?
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Old 07-21-21, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Highlighted: And that's your problem. You've managed to convince yourself that Westerners are SOO much bigger than Asians that you have just started making bikes bigger for customers that you "imagine" that you have without understanding that MANY Westerners are no larger than asians are in reality.

Here's the thing. The Western women who truly are taller, can and will ride mens bikes, no problems.

Giant actually HAS made improvements for small people yet you have confined the advances to the Juvenile range.
The Giant ARX 24, has the correct fundamental geometry, in just about EVERY detail, for adults up to 5' or so.
The frame angles are good, the crank length is right. All it really needs is a taller head tube and longer seatpost and it would be just right. I ride one myself at 5'1". Currently the bike as made is chopped low, which I corrected with a riser stem and a long seatpost.
The market for womens bikes for Western women who are no taller than asian women is HUGE. Then factor in how many asians live in the West these days and there is a HUGE market that you are ignoring.
Giant has been building most “western” bikes for close to 50 years they know the dimensions of their customers all over the world.

While I generally agree that short riders get the short shrift the difference between a 559 and a 584 isn’t going to be the difference to whether a bike fits or doesn’t. If you watch/read some interviews of Georgina Terry who in essence created women’s specific bikes with wheels that match their smaller stature she talks about wheel size and modern geometry and how she designs small bikes. The era of 559/571 for small riders is gone modern ideas of fork rake and trail makes wheel size (within reason) moot.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
Giant has been building most “western” bikes for close to 50 years they know the dimensions of their customers all over the world.

While I generally agree that short riders get the short shrift the difference between a 559 and a 584 isn’t going to be the difference to whether a bike fits or doesn’t. If you watch/read some interviews of Georgina Terry who in essence created women’s specific bikes with wheels that match their smaller stature she talks about wheel size and modern geometry and how she designs small bikes. The era of 559/571 for small riders is gone modern ideas of fork rake and trail makes wheel size (within reason) moot.
Bike sizing for small riders has been pretty terrible from all manufacturers for quite a while but it did used to be better. Georgina Terry didn't invent small sized bikes and to be honest in my opinion she didn't actually do that good a job.
That's why I referenced a Giant ARX 24 and not Terry bikes.

Vintage bikes for Juveniles/small adults used to have 24" wheels, 140-150mm cranks, 71-72 degree seat tube angles, low bottom brackets and short front centre distances.
Giant KNOW's how to do it, they just don't.
Why?
Well its complicated, and lets not rule out manufacturing economics as a prime reason, yet, overestimating the size of Westerners has to be right up there as well.
I'm a short Western male at 152cm, yet, there are a LOT of Western women in this World the same height or maybe just a fraction taller and this is before we talk about all the Asian heritage people living in the Western World these days.

Bike manufacturers have missed the mark in terms of the size of their customers by a LONG way.
They have really missed the mark badly yet its the realities of manufacturing economics and precedence that gets in the way of fixing anything.
The truth is that there is a HUGE market for "asian" size people in the west that the bike manufacturers just REFUSE to service.
It's head in the sand stuff.

Last edited by AnthonyG; 07-21-21 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 07-22-21, 06:23 AM
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Thanks to the advocates for bikes for smaller riders. Bike companies claim that demand isn't sufficient to justify offering these smaller bikes but could it be a "chicken-and-egg" issue? Shorter people don't ride because bikes don't fit. If bike shops had bikes in stock that shorter people could try out (rather than having to special order and purchase without a trial), then demand for these smaller bikes might equal the demand for the "regular" bikes.
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Old 07-22-21, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cj3209 View Post
Hi, why can't you just change out your cranks into a 160mm?
I have the crankset; a gorgeous $300 Sugino road set (because they're the only ones making non-mtb. 160 cranks, and then only on their website) that I lucked into for $100. I have to nag the husbeast into doing it, after he fixes the car (random flat tire). And no, I'm fairly mechanically incompetent.
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Old 07-22-21, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
Giant has been building most “western” bikes for close to 50 years they know the dimensions of their customers all over the world.

While I generally agree that short riders get the short shrift the difference between a 559 and a 584 isn’t going to be the difference to whether a bike fits or doesn’t. If you watch/read some interviews of Georgina Terry who in essence created women’s specific bikes with wheels that match their smaller stature she talks about wheel size and modern geometry and how she designs small bikes. The era of 559/571 for small riders is gone modern ideas of fork rake and trail makes wheel size (within reason) moot.
Nope. The last time I climbed into my size small Liv after riding my old mtb. for a while, it felt very strongly like climbing into a hammock. I don't want to ride a hammock, I want to ride a lively bike.
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Old 07-22-21, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Bike sizing for small riders has been pretty terrible from all manufacturers for quite a while but it did used to be better. Georgina Terry didn't invent small sized bikes and to be honest in my opinion she didn't actually do that good a job.
That's why I referenced a Giant ARX 24 and not Terry bikes.

Vintage bikes for Juveniles/small adults used to have 24" wheels, 140-150mm cranks, 71-72 degree seat tube angles, low bottom brackets and short front centre distances.
Giant KNOW's how to do it, they just don't.
Why?
Well its complicated, and lets not rule out manufacturing economics as a prime reason, yet, overestimating the size of Westerners has to be right up there as well.
I'm a short Western male at 152cm, yet, there are a LOT of Western women in this World the same height or maybe just a fraction taller and this is before we talk about all the Asian heritage people living in the Western World these days.

Bike manufacturers have missed the mark in terms of the size of their customers by a LONG way.
They have really missed the mark badly yet its the realities of manufacturing economics and precedence that gets in the way of fixing anything.
The truth is that there is a HUGE market for "asian" size people in the west that the bike manufacturers just REFUSE to service.
It's head in the sand stuff.
ILU. Will you marry me? Just FYI, I'm solidly west European; Mom was 5'3", so yay me for being taller!

I realize that the brands don't want to carry extra SKUs if they don't have to, but I like to think that if there were more comfortable bikes for women, more would ride, and hopefully demand better infrastructure, encouraging even more people to ride bikes.

Which leads me to a tangent; why aren't the big manufacturers, and even the small ones, advocating for infrastructure for their riders? Or is it easier to just crank out expensive mtbs and gravel bikes? I know, I know, they make more money from selling one $15,000 plastic fred sled than from 12 commuters. Okay, gripe over. :-/
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Old 07-22-21, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pearson100 View Post
Thanks to the advocates for bikes for smaller riders. Bike companies claim that demand isn't sufficient to justify offering these smaller bikes but could it be a "chicken-and-egg" issue? Shorter people don't ride because bikes don't fit. If bike shops had bikes in stock that shorter people could try out (rather than having to special order and purchase without a trial), then demand for these smaller bikes might equal the demand for the "regular" bikes.
Tell me about it!! Wanting to try a Kona from my LBS, only to discover they don't carry smalls, despite a state university just up the road. Their excuse? Well, what if we can't sell it? Then we're stuck with the bike. Men.
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Old 07-22-21, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Korina View Post
Tell me about it!! Wanting to try a Kona from my LBS, only to discover they don't carry smalls, despite a state university just up the road. Their excuse? Well, what if we can't sell it? Then we're stuck with the bike. Men.
I'm not sure if it's 'men.' LOL...I mean, I'm a small guy (5' 6") and I ride size 46.5 Pinarello and XS Canyon. And even then, the top tube clearance is pretty...well, let's just say I like to live dangerously...

I notice that there are a lot more large bikes than smaller one. I've complained to Canyon that most of their In-Stock bikes tend to always be sizes L or bigger; they seem to sel out the XS and S sized-bikes relatively quicker than the large sizes. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that they should be making more small-sized bikes but they don't. Both Canyon and Pinarello are European companies so perhaps that's why they focus more on larger frames and the pros are all fairly big men.

But I expect a firm like GIANT (based in Taiwan/China) to be different but I'm guessing that they hired western 'bike' specialists and hence, the problem perpetuates at Giant. I totally agree with Korina; if more smaller-sized bikes were available, more people would buy them. The market for women cyclists has HUGE untapped potential.
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Old 07-22-21, 01:25 PM
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A few things come to mind for me that Giant could improve upon

1.) Get rid of the press fit bottom brackets on all of your bike models. Especially the Mountain, Gravel and Adventure Bikes.

2.) You guys are missing the boat with your Giant ToughRoad Bike with Flat Bars...That bike needs to have a carbon frame offering and thru axles on both Front and Rear. The Specialized Sirrus outsells the ToughRoad for these very two reasons.

3.) Maybe I'm in the minority but I love the Giant D-fuse seat post. I don't care that it is proprietary. It keeps the seat perfectly aligned without having to eyeball it up. I used to own a Giant FastRoad and loved the seatpost on it. But I sold the bike because of the continuing bottom bracket creaking problems due to the press fit design.
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Old 07-22-21, 01:53 PM
  #22  
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As I remember, cyccommute has a fair bit of experience with riders of the shorter variety. It's a struggle.

cyccommute...here's a chance to offer input directly to a mfger.
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Old 07-22-21, 06:39 PM
  #23  
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One of the claims/excuses that may come up from the manufacturers is that they did used to make smaller wheel bikes but they didn't sell, and I do remember there being 650c wheel bikes for sale a decade or 2 ago.
The problem was that they never made them right even with the smaller wheels so small riders didn't like them either.
The fundamental problem was that even with their small wheels, they still had LONG cranks and steep (75 degree) seat tube angles so they were no more comfortable for small riders than the 700c wheel bikes were.

The key is in short/appropriately sized cranks, and then design/build the bike around the correct sized cranks. Then you end up with lower bottom bracket heights, importantly, RELAXED seat tube angles and genuinely short front-centre distances (from the BB to the front wheel axle).

The problem for manufacturing economics is that this all means lots more different sized parts on a production line where as the goal of a production line is to keep the different number of parts to an absolute minimum.
So they fudged it. They fundamentally make larger bikes and just fudge some minor differences for small people that are "acceptable" from a production line manufacturing point of view.

I understand all this yet I maintain that they have missed their "centre" by a LONG way.
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Old 07-22-21, 06:51 PM
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cj3209
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
One of the claims/excuses that may come up from the manufacturers is that they did used to make smaller wheel bikes but they didn't sell, and I do remember there being 650c wheel bikes for sale a decade or 2 ago.
The problem was that they never made them right even with the smaller wheels so small riders didn't like them either.
The fundamental problem was that even with their small wheels, they still had LONG cranks and steep (75 degree) seat tube angles so they were no more comfortable for small riders than the 700c wheel bikes were.

The key is in short/appropriately sized cranks, and then design/build the bike around the correct sized cranks. Then you end up with lower bottom bracket heights, importantly, RELAXED seat tube angles and genuinely short front-centre distances (from the BB to the front wheel axle).

The problem for manufacturing economics is that this all means lots more different sized parts on a production line where as the goal of a production line is to keep the different number of parts to an absolute minimum.
So they fudged it. They fundamentally make larger bikes and just fudge some minor differences for small people that are "acceptable" from a production line manufacturing point of view.

I understand all this yet I maintain that they have missed their "centre" by a LONG way.
That's good insight into what's been happening - thx for this.

I'm grateful that I can still ride fairly comfortably even with these 'larger' geometries that don't really fit my body size.

On another note, the 2021 Giro d'Italia winner, Egan Bernal is 5' 7". He also won the Tour de France in 2019.

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Old 07-22-21, 07:27 PM
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Coppi51,

Your designs look really cool. Here's my take on today though:

Every bike maker is making the same bike. They all look the same, they all have the same parts. There is nothing unique about any of them in my opinion. It used to be that each brand of bike had its own unique "look". You could look at the bike, the lugs, the pedals, the handle bars and tell from afar what brand it was...even if it was a brand new model.

Back in the day you could tell from 100 yards a Schwinn Varsity from a Raleigh Super Course. They both were "10 speeds", Both had drop bars, plastic bar tape and a saddle. But they had their own look. Today's Rivendell bikes are like that. You might not know what bike a Rivendell is, but when you see one you'll think, "wow, cool, what's that?".

That same "gray" or "clean" design style inflicts car design also. Every sedan, every coup, every SUV, they all have the same shape. The only difference is their branding.

It's bland. That type of design has no soul, no personality. Driving a car has turned into a mundane necessity instead of an experience.

Back in the 1970's American cars were all uniquely styled. Even out of that variety there was one maker that took that left turn on style and color. It was Dodge. I'll never forget when I first saw a 1967 Dodge charger in that electric purple color. It was fast, loud, had beautiful lines and it had soul.

Giant should take a leap and take a left turn on color options, style and standardize on parts for the aftermarket. Make some bikes with soul and personality.

My daily drivers have soul, style, personality and are a blast to ride and drive. Going to the supermarket is actually fun in either. One is for a pint of ice cream, the other for a gallon of milk:




Last edited by drlogik; 07-22-21 at 07:35 PM.
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