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Calories and cycling

Old 08-02-21, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
So by "upper Tempo" I'm assuming your 6 hour outdoor ride was at say 85-90% of your FTP. Am I reading that correctly?
Around 84-85% IF. Mid is 82%, anything above that is upper to me.

Every week increase that ride a little in duration. I have done 80% for 10 hours but my fitness was never good enough to do better.

You have to realize......there is no real good lab data on long, long efforts. It is in theory. The quote about being able to ride in Zone 2 continuously for 2 weeks always got me a chuckle. Tempo is 2 1/2 to 8 hours in their estimation. My numbers were in those ranges. You have to understand, it was not unusual for me to have 500-1000 mile weeks. This builds very good endurance. The exercise physiciologists do not have a pool of riders like that to make studies. So, their guidance is an estimate. Like FTP is about what a rider can consistently do for about an hour. It could be 40 minutes or 65 minutes and if you read Coyle's original research, it would be clear why it is worded that way

L2: Endurance

Intervals in the endurance zone occur when power is maintained between 56% and 75% of your FTP. A well-trained athlete can maintain a continuous endurance zone effort for a very long time; as Dr. Andy Coggan suggests, we can ride endurance zone “between two and a half hours to two weeks.
L3 Tempo.....maintaining power between 76% and 90% of your FTP. Efforts in this power zone can be maintained for durations between two and a half and eight hours.
https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com...zones-101.html
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Old 08-02-21, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Average power and NP are the same thing for a long, steady effort. I wasn't talking about losing weight in this sideline discussion. I was merely raising an eyebrow at the intensity factors being quoted, especially by you.
I have tried to explain why yours are low and why mine are high. You would crush me on short efforts. I have a lousy functional reserve capacity or W'.

Mine are high due to training. Try riding 5 straight weeks of 1000 miles each week. Your VLA max will be very low, too. You'll be a diesel
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Old 08-02-21, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
frequent high intensity (threshold and above) is something to avoid when a fat person is trying to lose weight
One thing to note however, is that if someone can tickle up their ftp and do more by doing it at a higher burn rate..........then that's "more".

I'm not sure the balance between "frequent" and "none", but if the same person could grow from an ftp of 200w riding a ton of Z1 and Z2 each week up to 225w............that's "more". Just as an example.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I have tried to explain why yours are low and why mine are high. You would crush me on short efforts. I have a lousy functional reserve capacity or W'.

Mine are high due to training. Try riding 5 straight weeks of 1000 miles each week. Your VLA max will be very low, too. You'll be a diesel
Okay, it's always interesting to hear real life case studies like yours. I agree they are not common. I can understand the 1000 mile week at low intensity, but the TSS to ride that sort of volume up at around 85% FTP would not be sustainable. When Coggan talks in general about L3 at 76-90% FTP for 2.5 to 8 hours I always took that as meaning 76% for the 8 hours and only for an elite level athlete as an upper boundary.

As I understand it pro tour racers do the bulk of their long 20+ hour/week base rides at a very low % of FTP. Definitely not high Tempo. I think their training tends to be quite polarised, either very low or very high intensity and not a whole lot of Z3 volume training. A more limited volume of Sweet-spot base (around 90% ish FTP) is now generally considered a good compromise for those who don't have 20 hours per week to do a more traditional base. But sounds like you are doing (or have been doing) huge volumes at around Sweet-spot intensity.

Last edited by PeteHski; 08-02-21 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Saturday I rode 3 hrs 17 min moving time at an average of 87% of FTP. I had a shot of whey protein for breakfast before the ride and ate a Clif bar at a stop for no real reason. 2159 nominal calories expended. No problems. People vary, particularly in their type and degree of training.
Originally Posted by MoAlpha
We are talking intensity, right?
Your original comment said you averaged 87% of FTP for over 3 hrs. That's a very tough workout and likely an indication that your FTP was overstated. The data you posted confirmed that your average power was 66% of FTP for the ride which is more reasonable. The 87% was your Normalized Power (NP) not Average Power (AP)
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Old 08-02-21, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
No it really is that easy. Of course there are medical issues that should be taken into consideration, but for the huge majority of humanity eating less and exercising is the best way to lose weight if that is your goal. We have an obesity problem because of the amounts and types of food people choose to eat. Self control is difficult. I assure you more people have been helped through what you call moralizing than by overcomplicated, touchy-feely weight loss fads.
Originally Posted by pgjackson
I really don't know what your are trying to say that is different that what I have said. You yourself had to adjust your eating habits....which at it's core was probably simply eating less calories....what is easy? No. I have not promoted any particular weight loss plan other than "eat less and exercise". That IS at the core of virtually every weight loss program. Whether it's keto, fasting, South Beach, grapefruit and pickles....whatever it is that works for you it's all about controlling eating habits. I've said it multiple times. There is no cookie-cutter plan that works for everyone, but it all falls back on reducing caloric intake over time.

You yourself had to learn how to control your eating by changing habits, eating better foods, and developing self control. It wasn't easy. It never is. It sounds like you succeeded in getting over the mountain. Most people do not succeed, or they do succeed but fall back into their old habits over time and gain all the weight back. Nobody said it is easy. Riding a bike up a hill isn't easy. Running 5 miles isn't easy. Lifting heavy-ass weight isn't easy. That's why most people don't do it. Going to the grocery store and staying away from the soda and chips aisle is also hard. Going to a restaurant and ordering grilled chicken instead of the smothered chimichanga is hard. But it's very simple.

I haven't lectured anyone other than saying that at the core of virtually EVERY weight loss program is controlling eating habits. It really is a simple universal formula. How it's implemented on an individual level can get difficult. I hated Keto because it made me feel weak all the time and I hated having to track how many carbs I've had.. Intermittent fasting seems to work pretty well for me. Some people are the opposite. Both are designed to control eating habits.

So, with that complete backtrack, I'm leaving this argument. My whole point was telling people this is simple and easy and making it all about their moral failure was not helpful. Now you're just denying you said what you said, so I'm calling the fight.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
So, with that complete backtrack, I'm leaving this argument. My whole point was telling people this is simple and easy and making it all about their moral failure was not helpful. Now you're just denying you said what you said, so I'm calling the fight.
Fine, I meant to say simple in that one sentence. Does that help? I've said it multiple times that it is not easy. Is that the crux of your entire argument? WHo said anything is a moral failure? That is your nonsense. People don't like difficult things. There is nothing moral or immoral about struggling with weight loss. Some people are successful in their weight loss goals, some aren't. That is primarily due to a personal ability to stick with it. I'll say it again, Eat less and exercise. The formula is easy to understand, but difficult to apply.
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Old 08-02-21, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
but we do because a lot of people here keep saying "it's not that simple". It really is for the huge majority of people. Yet here we are 9 pages into a thread discussing it because a lot of people want to make it overly complicated with anecdotal stories, scientific data and rare medical conditions. A lot of it sounds like excuses to me. That is why we have an obesity problem. Too many excuses, not enough self control.
Originally Posted by pgjackson
fine, i meant to say simple in that one sentence. Does that help? I've said it multiple times that it is not easy. Is that the crux of your entire argument? Who said anything is a moral failure? That is your nonsense. People don't like difficult things. There is nothing moral or immoral about struggling with weight loss. Some people are successful in their weight loss goals, some aren't. That is primarily due to a personal ability to stick with it. I'll say it again, eat less and exercise. The formula is easy to understand, but difficult to apply.

lol.
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Old 08-02-21, 12:44 PM
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What in God's name is FTP ? I mostly glossed over the complicated training parts with the abbreviations to get to the angry "its simple/its not simple" sections.

I ride mostly on flat stuff ..... I do get breathing really hard sometimes ....and my legs get tired too. Sometimes if the wind is right my speedometer says I am pretty fast ....but then a guy or gal passes me ,,,,,then I pedal really hard to catch up .... I usually can't tho .... and then I breath really really hard and sometimes a bug flies in my mouth. I wonder how many calories it is ?

On a serious note I am close to surpassing my yearly mileage total from last year and set several personal bests of distance for a single ride as well as weekly and monthly mile totals. Small potatoes for some of the hard core riders on this forum but an accomplishment nonetheless for me !!

Now back to eat less and exercise for the best FTP out there !!!
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Old 08-02-21, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Your original comment said you averaged 87% of FTP for over 3 hrs. That's a very tough workout and likely an indication that your FTP was overstated. The data you posted confirmed that your average power was 66% of FTP for the ride which is more reasonable. The 87% was your Normalized Power (NP) not Average Power (AP)
I should have written “intensity” for the ride because that’s what we were discussing. If anything, I was using an underestimate of my FTP. I understand the difference between average power and NP.
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Old 08-02-21, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
If anything, I was using an underestimate of my FTP.
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Old 08-02-21, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
What in God's name is FTP ?
It's just a bunch of numbers that most cyclists don't have to worry about.
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Old 08-02-21, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Your original comment said you averaged 87% of FTP for over 3 hrs. That's a very tough workout and likely an indication that your FTP was overstated. The data you posted confirmed that your average power was 66% of FTP for the ride which is more reasonable. The 87% was your Normalized Power (NP) not Average Power (AP)
Exactly. That was my point when I questioned the original comment at face value. It makes more sense as a true 66% power average. It's still a very solid effort using NP, assuming an accurate FTP. A genuine TSS of 249 in 3 hours is no joke.
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Old 08-02-21, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I should have written “intensity” for the ride because that’s what we were discussing. If anything, I was using an underestimate of my FTP. I understand the difference between average power and NP.
I realise that you didn't intend to mislead, but I hope you now understand why I questioned it. We can only take posts at face value without further explanation. Now I see the full picture, your ride looks pretty "normal" to me, rather than the super-human effort it first appeared. Still a very big TSS for a 3 hour ride though.
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Old 08-02-21, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rdmonster69
What in God's name is FTP ? I mostly glossed over the complicated training parts with the abbreviations to get to the angry "its simple/its not simple" sections.

I ride mostly on flat stuff ..... I do get breathing really hard sometimes ....and my legs get tired too. Sometimes if the wind is right my speedometer says I am pretty fast ....but then a guy or gal passes me ,,,,,then I pedal really hard to catch up .... I usually can't tho .... and then I breath really really hard and sometimes a bug flies in my mouth. I wonder how many calories it is ?

On a serious note I am close to surpassing my yearly mileage total from last year and set several personal bests of distance for a single ride as well as weekly and monthly mile totals. Small potatoes for some of the hard core riders on this forum but an accomplishment nonetheless for me !!

Now back to eat less and exercise for the best FTP out there !!!
Must be a Cyclist's thing. I'm just an old guy on a bike.
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Old 08-02-21, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
You may well be right and I’m certainly not claiming that I’m fast or that this was any sort of great ride. The only reason I brought it up was that I didn’t really need to fuel much for it. If we re-run it at an FTP of 220 or 3.4 W/kg, which I’m pretty sure is an overestimate, based on my unimpressive history, the intensity is 82%. The truth may be somewhere in between.
Looking at the data the variability is quite high. An average Watts of 138 for your ride is more like 1600 Calories burned so I can believe one could do this ride without eating anything. The variability indicates lots of harder efforts so the energy used would be more carbohydrates than a straight 3 hours at 138 Watts.

I still think your FTP is too low and you're stronger than your FTP indicates.

I did a 3h15m ride (6:34 stoppage time so 3h22m total) in June that was 77% normalized and 73% average FTP and it drained me.
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Old 08-02-21, 07:40 PM
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I've watched my Garmin Edge 500 post ride calories and while it does notice how fast you ride uphill, it can't account for slower speeds on flats with headwinds.
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Old 08-02-21, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gios
I've watched my Garmin Edge 500 post ride calories and while it does notice how fast you ride uphill, it can't account for slower speeds on flats with headwinds.
Or faster speeds on flats with tailwinds.
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Old 08-02-21, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gios
I've watched my Garmin Edge 500 post ride calories and while it does notice how fast you ride uphill, it can't account for slower speeds on flats with headwinds.
It can if you have a power meter.
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Old 08-02-21, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
I should have written “intensity” for the ride because that’s what we were discussing. If anything, I was using an underestimate of my FTP. I understand the difference between average power and NP.
Intensity is not a well defined term either and is not the same as NP. Best to just use NP if that's what you're talking about.
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Old 08-02-21, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Intensity is not a well defined term either and is not the same as NP. Best to just use NP if that's what you're talking about.
IF is well defined.
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Old 08-02-21, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
IF is well defined.
It is but Intensity Factor != Intensity. The original comment was someone referencing a high intensity effort of 87% of FTP. That wouldn't normally be interpreted as NP. If I do 30 Sec high intensity intervals at 400W no one would equate those numbers with NP.
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Old 08-03-21, 03:25 AM
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If it’s the only way you can exercise, then it’s brilliant. Otherwise, you’d be better off avoiding it.

Medium intensity training is only really any good for building up stamina, for endurance events. The calorie consumption is usually offset by the feeling of hunger it induces. And if you’re good at ignoring those calls to the fridge, you shouldn’t be worrying about burning extra calories, just eat less.

The way to make it work is to combine it with intervals of high intensity. But if you’re prepared to work at a high intensity, you might as well skip the medium, go full HIIT, and complete your session in a fraction of the time.

Having said that, you will almost certainly lose weight in the short term. But it won’t continue for very long, as your metabolism will start to adapt and you will become more efficient on the bike.

its always worth telling yourself that the most important part of ‘diet and exercise’ is the diet bit. You can exercise all you want, but if you don’t get your diet right, you’ll end up putting unnecessary strain on your body.
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Old 08-03-21, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark
Must be a Cyclist's thing. I'm just an old guy on a bike.

I'm old enough that I associate "FTP" to staring at my computer waiting an hour for it to download 1 megabyte through a dial up modem.
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Old 08-03-21, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveHopps
If it’s the only way you can exercise, then it’s brilliant. Otherwise, you’d be better off avoiding it.

Medium intensity training is only really any good for building up stamina, for endurance events. The calorie consumption is usually offset by the feeling of hunger it induces. And if you’re good at ignoring those calls to the fridge, you shouldn’t be worrying about burning extra calories, just eat less.

The way to make it work is to combine it with intervals of high intensity. But if you’re prepared to work at a high intensity, you might as well skip the medium, go full HIIT, and complete your session in a fraction of the time.

Having said that, you will almost certainly lose weight in the short term. But it won’t continue for very long, as your metabolism will start to adapt and you will become more efficient on the bike.

its always worth telling yourself that the most important part of ‘diet and exercise’ is the diet bit. You can exercise all you want, but if you don’t get your diet right, you’ll end up putting unnecessary strain on your body.
Careful, those kinds of absolute and non-inclusive statements are frowned upon here...even if it's correct.
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