chaadster

You didn’t miss much. It’s basically just been people insisting over and over again that their intuition is better than reason, and being totally unable to acknowledge and assimilate any information, facts, or suggestions to the contrary.

It basically boils down for them, as I understand it, to the core belief that the standard signals expected and required to be known by all motor vehicle operators and road traffic (e.g. bicycles and horses) actually is not known to anyone except an elite cabal of cyclists, and in the face of such gross ignorance, the best course of action is to abandon the reasoned processes which bind American vehicular society and instead rely on our primal instincts, pointing like “me Tarzan, you Jane.”

kahn

WA State:

RCW 46.61.758

Hand signals.

All hand signals required of persons operating bicycles shall be given in the following manner:
(1) Left turn. Left hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the bicycle;
(2) Right turn. Left hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the bicycle, or right hand and arm extended horizontally to the right side of the bicycle;
(3) Stop or decrease speed. Left hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the bicycle.
The hand signals required by this section shall be given before initiation of a turn.

urbanknight

Well that made it clear to even the dumbest of people, and until they put an IQ requirement on the driver's test, whatever gets the point across is the safest to me. I'm looking to avoid an accident with any drivers, not just the smart ones.

cyccommute 

Says the kettle to the pot. You are perfectly free to go lobby your local legislature to change the rules to left arm only use. We all know that using the left hand to make a right turn is an acceptable method. We also know that using the right hand to make a right turn is an acceptable method. You haven’t presented any information, facts, or suggestions to show that using the right hand to signal a right turn is either illegal, unsafe, or immoral. Seems the only one here lacking an ability to “acknowledge and assimilate any information, facts, or suggestions to the contrary” is the guy looking back at you in the mirror.

No. It basically boils down to people can see our right arm because there isn’t a large piece of metal blocking the view. It would take a particularly dense motorist to not know what pointing to the right while on a bicycle means. Going way, way, way back to Biketiger’s original post, he was throughly confused about what a raised left hand meant…as has been pointed out to you before. That shows that it’s not as much of a well known standard as you seem to think it is.

If you think it is unsafe, how about presenting some data to back up the claim?

livedarklions

I should've qualified that--group riders signal each other. I've never seen cyclists not riding in a group signalling a stop to drivers.

livedarklions

What's actually happened is you've made a series of absurd assertions about what is and isn't "real" signalling and insisting illogically that legal signals that have been part of most states' drivers ed for over a a generation are somehow the eccentric choice of the large majority of cyclists. The right hand extended is every bit as much part of "the reasoned processes which bind American vehicular society" as left-hand right turn signals.

"me Tarzan, you troll"

jon c. 

I started riding about 12 years ago after decades off the bike. I only signal right turns if there is a car around for whom my intentions might matter. When I started back, I did the left arm thing. Because I'm a traditionalist. But I went to right arm signalling because it's much more effective. And that is rather the point.

Eric F 

Throughout my life, I've found it important to be able to communicate effectively in ways that leave as little as possible open for interpretation. While sharing the road with vehicles that can crush me in an instant, I'm going to err on the side of assuming drivers are idiots who can't remember all the left arm signals from when they took the driver's test, and have never had to use them a single time in their lives. Relying on a "primal" signal that leaves no question about my intent is a safer choice. I'm strongly in favor of returning home unbrioken. The fact that vehicle codes permit me to legally use that "primal" signal means that I am in compliance with "vehicular society".

bowwow

Name calling is sort of like ending the convo, right?

cyccommute 

What “name calling”? And you have called it “dangerous” which at least implies it is “wrong”.

cyccommute 

Please point out what “name” I called you.

chaadster

The most tragic takeaway of the many tragic takeaways in this thread is that a bunch of folks engaged in an activity with precisely zero barriers to entry (i.e. no prerequisite demonstration of knowledge of the rights, duties and obligation of their use of the road or traffic laws, let alone those of other vehicle users) are totally shameless in making the assumption and assertion that all those other users who do have to go through fairly rigorous education and training in not only their duties and obligations as drivers in order to receive licensing to drive, but also have to demonstrate knowledge of other user types’ rights, duties and obligations (e.g. bicycles, motorcycles and even pedestrians) have absolutely no grip on, nor awareness of, that training and education.

I mean it’s funny that probably just about everyone here drives and is aware of the standard left arm right turn signal, but at the same time some want us to believe that no other drivers know what that signal means. It’s weird, right? Like, we know they didn’t learn the signal in Cyclist Education class, so…

cyccommute 

Yeah, yeah. We get it. You think the rest of us have zero training in operating car.

The majority of people here also understand that motorists are smart enough to figure out what a right hand/right turn signal on a bicycle. You seem to be the one who can’t grasp that concept. It’s weird, right?

urbanknight

Have you seen how some people drive? I'm sure it's the minority, but there are most definitely people out there who have very little grip or awareness of what they learned in driver's ed. I don't know about other states, but here you take a written test with something like 20 questions (out of the hundreds of things you're supposed to know) and drive around a few remote streets for 15 minutes while someone watches. For the rest of your life, you just renew by mail or online except that they want to check your vision every decade or so.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I used to use the left arm signal and had someone almost rear-end me and then had to nerve to honk at me. When I confronted her, she told me she had no idea I was turning right since I had my left hand up. That's the kind of idiot I'm trying to avoid getting killed by. If assuming any or all other drivers on the road misunderstand signals like that keeps me safe, so be it.

Germany_chris

It's been an interesting thread..

I point to where I'm going so it's obvious to those around me

I run my my brakes right front

My front brake is my primary brake whether on the road, or the trail, and I don't go over the bars.

livedarklions

Is this seriously what you consider a rational argument? The legislatures made this argument absurd by changing the rules and they set the rules of the road, not you.

Your basic argument is that the current law is wrong because youngsters should have to be taught not to recognize the obviously intuitive right turn signal that the law currently allows. You continually ignore that the drivers ed training has been teaching the right hand signal for many, many years, so you're now claiming what exactly? They should have to be retrained not to recognize it?

What really happened was that the car left-hand right turn signal was made obsolete by the turn signal light. All that's really happened to bicycle signalling is that the bicycle hand signal has now been adapted to more closely resemble the car turn signal, which illuminates on the right side for a right turn. If you really want standard with cars, the answer would be that right turn signals occur on the right side of the vehicle, not on the left. You'd really need to ban the left-hand right turn signal, which is nothing but an historical accident. I don't advocate that because the fact is there's still a fair number of riders with that signalling habit, but that is literally the only valid argument for it on the merits.

So was your daddy railing on about the idiots needing to use an electric light to signal a turn because they were too something to stick with hand signals?

livedarklions

By that logic, choosing not to use your right arm is also, in essence, making up your own set of signals.

So the law allows you to make the choice and you oppose that? We have about 100 years of drivers conditioned to expect a right turn signal to appear on the right side of the vehicle, and that's the reason that the right hand signal is more intuitive. The law is evolving to standardize hand signalling with turn light signals. You might as well try to stop the sun from rising.
​​​​​

livedarklions

Does Germany even have the left-hand raised signal? Honest question, I have no idea.

bowwow

The right arm signal is good.

bowwow

you are correct.

Germany_chris

TBH I don't know but if it's like everything else in this country I'm sure there is some sort of established way to do it.

I've lived here on and off for 15 years but I'm still American so I grew up with American hand signals

Yup here's da rulz in English:

• You must give a hand signal for all turns. Point left with the left arm, and point right with the right arm to signal turns. The signal for stopping is one arm extended and the forearm pointing down using the arm most likely to be seen by the traffic.

livedarklions

So there is no left arm right turn signal. Thanks!

cb400bill

Points and counterpoints have all been made. Ad nauseam. It's now time to put this thread to bed.

/Closed