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Groupset tiers and diminishing returns

Old 09-09-21, 05:43 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by Flatforkcrown View Post
infinite money AND time? Nice.
Well, in that case he doesn't need to consider whether one groupset will make him faster.
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Old 09-09-21, 05:45 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by tempocyclist View Post
But does that cash net you diminishing returns over time?
Only if you're losing interest, like people on BF never seem to do no matter how long threads go on.
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Old 09-13-21, 12:19 PM
  #203  
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I believe that all group's are nearly the same when new. The primary difference is how long they continue to function like-new. At least that's fairly true in the 105-Ultegra-Dura Ace level. The weight difference is no really relevant considering most people vary a few # daily. Anything in the top 3-levels in most group sets will be great. The very-top level (DuraAce, Super Record, etc.) will likely be great 20,000 miles later. The replacement wear parts will cost a bit more. However, if you can find used but near-new higher-level components at the same price, go for it. If the $ matter, you can find great, slightly used high-end components.
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Old 09-13-21, 01:05 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by PR1107 View Post
I believe that all group's are nearly the same when new. The primary difference is how long they continue to function like-new. At least that's fairly true in the 105-Ultegra-Dura Ace level. The weight difference is no really relevant considering most people vary a few # daily. Anything in the top 3-levels in most group sets will be great. The very-top level (DuraAce, Super Record, etc.) will likely be great 20,000 miles later. The replacement wear parts will cost a bit more. However, if you can find used but near-new higher-level components at the same price, go for it. If the $ matter, you can find great, slightly used high-end components.
I'm not really buying into the idea that DuraAce lasts any longer than Ultegra or even 105. The latter is actually pretty bombproof IME. A curated mash-up between all 3 of the top tier group sets would probably give the longest life, if that was the top priority. I agree that the weight difference is not very important unless racing at a very competitive level where a few seconds may count.

Anyway I've decided to fit Campag Ekar on this bike, which being a gravel set should be very robust and exceed all the road group sets in durability and wear. Looking at the spec sheets for Ekar it certainly looks like durability was a high priority. Being 1x it's actually fairly light too despite the heavy duty build. Pretty much the same as Ultegra Di2 at around 2.4 kg.
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Old 09-13-21, 02:00 PM
  #205  
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Good choice with Campy

I just built my "best wish for" bike a year and a half ago. I had the frame custom built to my size and paint scheme out of Columbus XCr stainless steel tubing TIG welded by Cicli Barco in Italy. They did a beautiful job and I pulled out all the stops on details like a custom stainless steel fork with carbon steering tube, direct mount brakes, name badge, Italian shield, and dark nickel head badge. The price delivered was about $3,600 US. The best deal ever. Gianluca Barco is very fluent in English and is very helpful with any details you may desire. Check out their Facebook page to see what they can do with Columbus XCr. Cicli Barco | Facebook

I also bought from Barco the full Campy SR groupset as well as some really nice carbon parts (seat tube, handlebars, stem) made in Italy by WR Compositi who makes carbon parts for Ferrari and Lamborghini. The Campy direct mount brakes are great and not expensive. They never get out of whack or alignment and they open wide enough for a 28mm tire.. I despise disc brakes. The Super Record group is slick and smooth. I also have SR on a Cinelli Supercorsa and love it. I also have a carbon Wilier with Chorus; it works very well but it is not slick like SR. I also have a Wilier Cross frame with Campy Athena triple chainring. It works well but you can feel the difference between that and Chorus.

My Barco is a 58.5 cm frame and weighs 18.7 lbs with pedals. It could have been lighter with light wheels and a lighter saddle.

Custom Barco in stainless XCr.

Direct mount brakes on stainless fork.

Stainless fork with carbon steering tube
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Old 09-13-21, 08:13 PM
  #206  
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One sharp bike.
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Old 09-13-21, 08:31 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
It is money no object in the sense that I can easily afford it. But that doesn’t mean throwing money away on something for no meaningful gain.
It's impossible to throw away something that isn't an object.
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Old 09-13-21, 08:32 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Just thinking about building up a new road bike for next season. Money no object build but....

I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
I've ridden low end Shimano groups, Ultrega and for the last 20 years a DuraAce 7400 8 Speed group. Ten years ago I was averaging 1,000 miles a month in California. I am not even close to that these days, but still riding the
same DA group. Set up properly I would take the DA 7400 group over anything I have ever used. The group is hanging on an old Red, White and Blue TREK 770 Pro 531c frame that I would not trade for anything.

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Old 09-13-21, 08:35 PM
  #209  
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Everybody knows that 105 is Shimano's sweet spot for performance/cost.

But I do love my Dura Ace drive train.

Is it "worth it"?

That wasn't the question I was considering at the time of purchase...
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Old 09-14-21, 04:19 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Everybody knows that 105 is Shimano's sweet spot for performance/cost.

But I do love my Dura Ace drive train.

Is it "worth it"?

That wasn't the question I was considering at the time of purchase...
So are you saying it was an emotional decision? I do get that. A lot of purchases can be that way. You buy something simply because you aspire to it, knowing full well it doesn't have any objective benefit. I've done it many times too, just not with bicycle drivetrains up to now!
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Old 09-14-21, 04:52 AM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
It's impossible to throw away something that isn't an object.

For the umpteenth time, "money is no object" is always hyperbole . It can never be literally true. Please don't start this crap up again.
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Old 09-14-21, 04:54 AM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Everybody knows that 105 is Shimano's sweet spot for performance/cost.

But I do love my Dura Ace drive train.

Is it "worth it"?

That wasn't the question I was considering at the time of purchase...

What was the question you were considering?
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Old 09-14-21, 04:56 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
So are you saying it was an emotional decision? I do get that. A lot of purchases can be that way. You buy something simply because you aspire to it, knowing full well it doesn't have any objective benefit. I've done it many times too, just not with bicycle drivetrains up to now!
If that is your definition of an emotional decision, than no, that is not what he described doing.
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Old 09-14-21, 07:48 AM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What was the question you were considering?
It didn't have to do with money, but according to you, that's always untrue. So from your standpoint, it's a mystery.
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Old 09-14-21, 08:02 AM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
So are you saying it was an emotional decision? I do get that. A lot of purchases can be that way. You buy something simply because you aspire to it, knowing full well it doesn't have any objective benefit. I've done it many times too, just not with bicycle drivetrains up to now!
No you don't understand. The statement that 105 has the highest performance/cost does not equate with the statement that Dura Ace has no objective benefit over 105.

Just because the quotient is not higher, does not mean the numerator is not higher.
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Old 09-14-21, 08:17 AM
  #216  
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Maybe some people here aren't aware that at least at present, DI2 is only available for Ultegra and Dura-Ace? It's coming soon for 105.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:09 AM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
It didn't have to do with money, but according to you, that's always untrue. So from your standpoint, it's a mystery.

Well, let's put it this way--if the difference in price between Ultegra and Dura Ace was $1 million, would YOU pay for that difference?

You just decided it was worth it, but for some reason, you seem to think that's not something you should admit.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:10 AM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Maybe some people here aren't aware that at least at present, DI2 is only available for Ultegra and Dura-Ace? It's coming soon for 105.

So basically, you decided that Di2 was worth the difference in price. Again, would you have paid $1 million for Di2?
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Old 09-14-21, 09:13 AM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Well, let's put it this way--if the difference in price between Ultegra and Dura Ace was $1 million, would YOU pay for that difference?

You just decided it was worth it, but for some reason, you seem to think that's not something you should admit.
You keep making this point - though in past posts you have framed it as a willingness to pay an "infinite" extra amount for D/A. And either way, it's ridiculous. We're all cyclists. We know that D/A is not infinitely more expensive than Ultegra. It's not even $1m more expensive.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:29 AM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
You keep making this point - though in past posts you have framed it as a willingness to pay an "infinite" extra amount for D/A. And either way, it's ridiculous. We're all cyclists. We know that D/A is not infinitely more expensive than Ultegra. It's not even $1m more expensive.

OK, so the question I got the snotty response on was if his consideration wasn't whether it was "worth it" what was it?

So what you're now saying is that it's a stupid question because we all know that it really is plausibly worth it? Do I have that right?

If he's buying stuff he doesn't believe is "worth it", that's kind of weird, isn't it? Despite his denial of considering "worth", I don't think he's really doing that.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:30 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
So basically, you decided that Di2 was worth the difference in price. Again, would you have paid $1 million for Di2?

Did you ever read The Phantom Toll Booth?

You've arrived at the Island of Conclusions.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:32 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Did you ever read The Phantom Toll Booth?

You've arrived at the Island of Conclusions.

I notice you can't answer the question of "what besides worth are you considering." You're mired in the Morass of Evasions.
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Old 09-14-21, 09:33 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
OK, so the question I got the snotty response on was if his consideration wasn't whether it was "worth it" what was it?

So what you're now saying is that it's a stupid question because we all know that it really is plausibly worth it? Do I have that right?

If he's buying stuff he doesn't believe is "worth it", that's kind of weird, isn't it? Despite his denial of considering "worth", I don't think he's really doing that.
I'm flattered that you think my decision process is "worth" so much of your time.

BTW, good luck teaching Koyote , the professor of economics, about "worth".
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Old 09-14-21, 09:37 AM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I'm flattered that you think my decision process is "worth" so much of your time.

BTW, good luck teaching Koyote , the professor of economics, about "worth".

I've never noticed economists being particularly good with the nuances of language. You're the one in denial that this has anything to do with economics.

Let's put it simply--why can't you answer a very simple question without an accusation or a put-down?
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Old 09-14-21, 09:40 AM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've never noticed economists being particularly good with the nuances of language. You're the one in denial that this has anything to do with economics.

Let's put it simply--why can't you answer a very simple question without an accusation or a put-down?
I'm not compelled to answer snide questions from people who think they are good at inductive reasoning, but aren't.

Move on.
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