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Butyl vs latex tubes

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Butyl vs latex tubes

Old 09-27-21, 07:21 AM
  #26  
TiHabanero
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Because our shop sells all sorts of most up to date tech stuff, we employees must test them. Most of it, including latex tubes, falls under "A sucker is born every minute" category. I recommend getting a set, install them, and find out why most of us in the shop have come to this conclusion.
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Old 09-27-21, 09:35 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
TPU tubes .. I dont get it. The reason latex is such a good tube material is its low hysteresis compared to butyl. Now TPU has even MORE hysteresis than butyl, begging the question why anyone would consider such a material in the context of racing and comfort. It just has to be a worse material or they need to be silly thin to make up for the inherent drawbacks of the material. I it was any good at what you claim it would be used for tyre casings as well. That wont happen or it would really be a frozen garden hose experience.

And the price. Are you kidding!?
I don’t know what you think “hysteresis” means, but in various testing both by independents and manufacturers, TPU tubes have about the same rolling resistance as latex while being substantially lighter— as much as 1/4lb per pair— offering better air retention, and both better puncture resistance and puncture performance. TPU tubes like Schwalbe Aerothan are fully recyclable, as well as more heat-resistant than either latex or butyl which improves rim brake performance. Schwalbe also claim better low pressure stability for Aerothan than latex, which besides enabling better tire performance at lower pressures and increased safety margins, also makes tube installation easier than latex.

To your question, I suppose the issue is whether saving 120g and getting better puncture protection is worth the .5w of Crr more than latex. Given that I don’t think anyone has ever lost a race over half-a-watt (or conversely, that more watts don’t ensure race wins) but we know for sure that races are lost because of flats, it would seem a fool’s practice not to choose TPU.
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Old 09-28-21, 03:20 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I don’t know what you think “hysteresis” means, but in various testing both by independents and manufacturers, TPU tubes have about the same rolling resistance as latex while being substantially lighter— as much as 1/4lb per pair— offering better air retention, and both better puncture resistance and puncture performance. TPU tubes like Schwalbe Aerothan are fully recyclable, as well as more heat-resistant than either latex or butyl which improves rim brake performance. Schwalbe also claim better low pressure stability for Aerothan than latex, which besides enabling better tire performance at lower pressures and increased safety margins, also makes tube installation easier than latex.

To your question, I suppose the issue is whether saving 120g and getting better puncture protection is worth the .5w of Crr more than latex. Given that I don’t think anyone has ever lost a race over half-a-watt (or conversely, that more watts don’t ensure race wins) but we know for sure that races are lost because of flats, it would seem a fool’s practice not to choose TPU.
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...cials/tubolito

Nahh not really. From the above it appears only the ultra thin s-tubo tubolito can compete with latex in terms of rolling resistance. The penalty to the s-tubo is only about ~0.5w. The ordinary tubolito comes with at ~2 watt penalty over the tested latex tube (Per wheel). Cant imagine the s-tubo being especially durable or puncture proof at such a low weight (22g). - Its like when ppl debate TPU tubes they take the low rolling resistance (and weight) of the s-tubo and combine it with the perceived/claimed puncture resistance of the standard and presto! they have a wonder tube. Well not so fast! :-)

They sure are light tho, A pair of the s-tubos would save you 116 vs the latex tubes. Looks good om paper. However such little differences are hardly making up for Any added rolling resistance. For instance ascending at brisk pace of 1000m/h, a 116g weight saving would save you all of 0.3W. That's a draw vs a bit more rolling resistance, AND insignificant. The standard tubo would definitely be slower than latex, but yeah, possibly more durable. Then again I've seem ppl complain they have a hard time patching TPU tubes reliably. Not a great property at $30 a pop, if true.

To sum it up, I remain unconvinced. Looks like a different set of pros and cons rather than overall better. At the current price Ill pass.
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Old 09-28-21, 09:47 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...cials/tubolito

Nahh not really. From the above it appears only the ultra thin s-tubo tubolito can compete with latex in terms of rolling resistance. The penalty to the s-tubo is only about ~0.5w. The ordinary tubolito comes with at ~2 watt penalty over the tested latex tube (Per wheel). Cant imagine the s-tubo being especially durable or puncture proof at such a low weight (22g). - Its like when ppl debate TPU tubes they take the low rolling resistance (and weight) of the s-tubo and combine it with the perceived/claimed puncture resistance of the standard and presto! they have a wonder tube. Well not so fast! :-)

They sure are light tho, A pair of the s-tubos would save you 116 vs the latex tubes. Looks good om paper. However such little differences are hardly making up for Any added rolling resistance. For instance ascending at brisk pace of 1000m/h, a 116g weight saving would save you all of 0.3W. That's a draw vs a bit more rolling resistance, AND insignificant. The standard tubo would definitely be slower than latex, but yeah, possibly more durable. Then again I've seem ppl complain they have a hard time patching TPU tubes reliably. Not a great property at $30 a pop, if true.

To sum it up, I remain unconvinced. Looks like a different set of pros and cons rather than overall better. At the current price Ill pass.
Since you’re so concerned with Crr, I don’t know why you’d take numbers from the 60psi, which show latex giving up 3.4w to the lower pressure. That’s more than 4x the difference between latex and Aerothan at the perfectly reasonable 100psi test point where BRR show only an average of .8w benefit to Vittoria latex over Aerothan. That’s an *average* of .8w across testing 3 different tires, so unless you’re willing to believe all tires tested exactly .8w faster with the latex, it means at least one Aerothan was substantially closer to latex’s Crr than that, or perhaps two were lower. In any case, that’s desperately close to margin-of-error stuff, especially when you consider that contrary to BRR’s results, Aerocoach found Aerothan 2w and 3.5w faster than Tubolito S and Tubolito, respectively. So what’s in half a watt? Nothing, I’d say. Certainly, with a pair of tubes in, races aren’t won or lost by a single watt.

The data seems to say to me that the fastest latex and the fastest TPU are functionally equivalent in terms of rolling resistance. The data also definitively say TPU is always lighter. Schwalbe claim better puncture resistance and puncture performance, as well as better low-pressure stability and full recycle-ability. So what’s in your “con” column, I wonder? Based on my successful patching of Aerothan with Lezyne self-adhesive patches, I don’t think there is anything of merit in claims about difficulty patching TPU, if only because Aerothan seems to be the best of TPU tubes anyway. So that leaves price, and well if saving 1w in racing conditions even crosses one’s mind, I would think spending $70 to save 120g and improve puncture resistance with effectively no penalty to Crr would be a no-brainer.
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Old 09-29-21, 03:55 PM
  #30  
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Aerothan's might be worth trying, though compared to butyl michelin aircomps, the CBA is more along the lines of spend $20 more to save 35g.

Also.. as ostensibly a high performance solution, isn't it a bit odd to only offer these with 40mm valves?
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Old 09-29-21, 04:48 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Because our shop sells all sorts of most up to date tech stuff, we employees must test them. Most of it, including latex tubes, falls under "A sucker is born every minute" category. I recommend getting a set, install them, and find out why most of us in the shop have come to this conclusion.

I did this.

Can't say I really noticed much difference in speed or feel (23mm GP4000 tyres).

Yes I still run them in my TT bike wheels anyway.

Yes I'm a sucker, especially for saving watts when "bike industry science" tell me it does...
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Old 09-29-21, 05:46 PM
  #32  
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your gears are on big big
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