mstateglfr 

He is very aware of that. You know he knows.

ClydeClydeson

My very first job was in a bike shop that sold Trek, in the early 90s. When I started, they were offering cromoly bikes with lugged construction (900 series) and bikes with bonded aluminum frames, and alu/carbon bonded frames all MUSA, and American made full-carbon ('OCLV). They also had the 800 series and some lower cost steel road bikes and kids bikes made in Taiwan. By the time I left that job a few years later they had moved all cromoly and aluminum frame production to Taiwan, and changed to TIG welding across the board.

A few years later they started getting entry level carbon frames made in Asia, with the higher end stuff still American. I believe they sent the higher end carbon production incrementally to Asia over the 00s and 10s. All is Asian now.

Phil_gretz

Just a few days ago, you wondered whether expensive bikes would be better than your $100 Huffy. Where do you think your Huffy was made (PRC or ROC)? Just curious...

777funk

Made (cheaply) in USA. They had a factory's in Ohio, Mississippi, and Missouri until the late 90s or so.

See the section about half way down regarding Walmart and their fate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huffy

Toadmeister

A reminder that just because brand X and Y are built in the same factory, this does NOT conclude you are receiving the same quality, performance or design.

Supplier X and Y may have very different specifications. Ideally the manufacturer builds nominally (with allowable tolerances) to those specifications.

A quality bike frame just means it is built to specifications within set tolerances. Often consumers confuse quality with performance. I expect different performance out of a Trek vs a Huffy from a Big Box store.

Moisture

makes me so particularly eager not to follow this advice.

ClydeClydeson

And the Trek wasn't made in the USA. The TIG welded Antelope 800 series were made in Taiwan and sold alongside the more expensive lugged construction MUSA 900 series.

777funk

Maybe in some cases, but apparently not in this case. Here's the Made in USA label on the one we have here:





Of course this is an old bike. Maybe this was before the offshoring happened.

ClydeClydeson

It also might be that the tubes were made in the USA and the frame was welded together in Asia.

Maelochs

First thought I had .... The factory in Taiwan bought a bunch of tubes, just like any other manufacturer would. Maybe there wasn't enough profit margin for Trek Taiwan to set up its own tube-drawing factory, when the good stuff could be easily purchased.

Wilfred Laurier

That exact same tubing sticker with 'Made in the USA' is for sale all over the internet. I am confident it refers only to the tubing. Trek Antelope bikes were made in Asia.

Trek would have specced TT OX tubes for manufacture by the Asian (Taiwanese probably) contract manufacturer to be built into a bike to their (Trek's) specs.

Maelochs

Trek Bike Models by Year and Color suggests the bike your son was considering was a 1990 Antelope. The other bike you picture is more likely a 1992 model.

According to Vintage Trek - Steel Road Bike Timeline, Trek Bicycle Corporation "Some 1987 TREK frames and/or bikes were subcontracted to the Taiwanese bike company Merida. These were Model 800, 830 and 850 mountain bikes and Model 300 road bikes. See Note 8 on the serial number page for more information."

Page Vintage Trek Bicycle Frame Serial Numbers, bike states: "The SN list for 1986 has some serial number ranges with annotations about POs (purchase orders) to "Merida". These are for Model 800, 830 and 850 mountain bikes and Model 300 road bikes. These were made late in the year, so they probably were all 1987 models. At least some of these were provided to Trek as "frames only". One reported SN in these ranges, for an 850, was prefaced by the letters TML. From the serial number list, the number of Trek frames or bikes made by Merida late in 86 totaled at least 8251.
"Merida is a Taiwanese bike company that was established in 1972. It is currently a major, worldwide player in the bicycle business. See https://www.merida.com/ for information on this company."
LA"

So possibly the frames were built in Taiwan and sent to the US for assembly. The tubing was purchased by Trek USA, shipped to Taiwan, and the frames shipped back? That is 1986 only , anyway.

Prior to that, "The Japanese Connection - Beginning in 1981 or 1982 (and extending through at least 1986), Trek used Tange, a subcontractor in Japan, to build some frames and parts of frames. The 300 and some 400 series were a complete (unpainted) frame and fork from Japan, but painted and assembled in Waterloo. The 500, 600, and 800 (MTB) series had the main triangle built in Waterloo, the pre-assembled rear stays were attached, and the whole works painted and assembled in Waterloo. The 700, 900, and 170 series were completely built, painted, and assembled in Waterloo. Some 600 series were all Reynolds 531 frames. Trek had Reynolds seatstays and chain stays shipped from England to Japan, where they were assembled into the rear triangle assemblies and then shipped to Waterloo to be attached to the main frame."

Further down the page it says "An 8 or 9 character alphanumeric code was used for mid- and low-level frames subcontracted in Taiwan. Most of these bikes were labeled "Made in Taiwan" (although the sticker often is easily removed). This form of serial number appears to have been used during the period 1987 to 93. The number leads with a T (for Trek?) then a numeral, one letter or two, then five (sometimes 4) numerals. Sean Hickey suggested the first numeral is the year of manufacture, and the letter is the month of the year (A - L). This is confirmed by serial numbers that were submitted by other Trek owners. If there are two letters after the year numeral, the first is the month. The second runs from A through at least Y. It might be a way of extending the 5 digit number series by a factor of 26." So .... possibly frames were being made on both sides of the ocean?

No clue. Not sure that it matters. Whatever happened in 1992 has long been over.

777funk

The pictures in the post with the USA sticker is my son's bike. Sounds like he has a 1992. He paid $50 for it in rough shape and invested another $50 to get it up to snuff. I think it's a pretty good bike for what he paid and the time invested.

Trsnrtr

My LBS was able to visit the Giant factory a few years ago. Production from other bike companies is kept separate from Giant and their competitors. Their production is inspected and watched by the particular company hiring Giant to manufacture for them to their own specs and design.

So, as pointed out in the quote, frames and/or parts are not the same design, quality, etc. as their competitors
​​​​​​.

PeteHski

That makes sense. If you take all the emotional baggage out of choosing a bike, a high-end Giant carbon frame is probably about as good as it gets as far as carbon frames go. But the trouble is they just seem to lack the X-factor of the more exotic brands. But at least you can be confident in the quality, which is not always the case elsewhere.

indyfabz

When I bought my first (and only) MTB in either '91 or '92 I test rode both of those. Ended up going with the 930 I think it was. I remember the lugged construction. That bike was a workhorse. Abused that thing for some 13 year and it rarely complained. Finally put it in the alley with the trash when I was cleaning out my mom's garage in preparation for selling her house. It was gone in a matter of hours. I liked to think that someone got a few more years out of it bent rim and dented top tube notwithstanding.

Charliekeet

I think we'd all agree with that statement. This is exactly the kind of bike that many of us C&V (classic & Vintage) fans refer to when we suggest that people not bother buying a new cheap bike (because new+cheap is often crappy) and to look for a quality older bike like this. It just doesn't matter whether it was only the True Temper tubing that was made in the USA and the rest was put together in Taiwan; it's a long-lasting, quality package either way.

ClydeClydeson

I certainly never meant to imply that the bike was in any way inferior because it was most likely built in Taiwan, or because it is TIG welded instead of lugged and brazed - it's an excellent bike. In fact, Trek went to all TIG welded steel frames a year or two after that 830 was made, and I have never heard anyone say this was a drop in quality. There is a certain prestige or intrinsic value, if only to collectors, of a Made in USA frame, but it's not a practical advantage when the rubber meets the road/trail. I am actually looking for an XL Trek frame very much like your 830 to build into an adventure-tourer. I will be over the moon if I can find a lugged model, but the only advantage is aesthetic. I will be happy if I find an Antelope.

The Giant bike discussed is a different animal, though - aluminum frame, F&R suspension, and new enough that it has V brakes instead of cantilevers. If you have faith that the suspension bits are in good condition then it is a superior bike for off road riding.

Maelochs

Yup .... and I for one am really glad. Giant is usually better value per dollar simply because it lacks that market cachet. People would rather buy a trek with the same frame (basically) and about the same build, because of the downtube decal.

Giant isn't hurting. I am sure if they wanted to spend a buttload of money on marketing they could eke out another few dollars per bike ... but probably too much effort for too little return.

It's funny, everyone looks at Trek and Specialized as the big American brands, and probably Cannondale next .... despite where the bikes are actually made.

PeteHski

Giant have an interesting business model. Basically focusing more on manufacturing (including manufacturing everyone else's frames!) than marketing. Trek, Specialized and Cannondale all focus heavily on promoting their "USA premium bike" image. While the Italian brands promote their historic racing pedigree and design flair. It's all a bit ironic when you think about it.

My first carbon frame was a Giant (Cadex branded) that I bought back in 1996. I remember they were struggling to sell against high-end steel frames of that era. So I got a very good discount and it turned out to be a really decent frame. I rode it for about 8 years before selling it on to a colleague at work.

Charliekeet

Got my first Giant in 1986 as a kid. Our local mom-&-pop LBS suggested a road bike of theirs, chromoly, when none of us had heard of the brand before. They were like "it's just as good as these other more expensive bikes, and you'll be seeing a lot more of them before long." I was skeptical, but ended up being glad I got it. Rode the heck out of it for years, and it changed my understanding of what was a "good" bike, and also what was a good value. To that point, the "nice bikes" I had seen were a Bianchi and a Fuji that I thought were just untouchable, and this was an eye-opener.

PeteHski

A friend of mine is a bike shop owner and always recommends Giant when people are looking for decent quality and value for money. They are hard to beat.

jp911

Thx all for this post!
It made me love my 2012 Madone even more. Not that the place of frame manufacture is all that important to me, but it feels like the last of a generation of USA made Trek bikes (raises the cool factor).

restlessswind

In my opinion, Taiwan made bikes have always been of superb quality, even in the 80's. Taiwan took over where Japan left off. Nowadays, Taiwan made bikes are the highest end of popular, mass produced bikes.. I would't say they came a long way, I say they started out on the high. The quality of the late 80's to present frames are of the highest standards. They are better than the Japanese bikes of the 70's and 80's. Just because a bike is made in a predominantly Caucasian country (US, UK, Italy, France) doesn't mean it is a superior product. Also the QC in China all depends on the specifications of the demand of the company contracting a manufacturer, Very high end products are made in China. Just because something is made in China doesn't mean it is garbage either. To think so is racist.

skookum

Bacl in the '80s, people were worried when production shifted to Taiwan from Japan, because of the high value of the yen. There was a feeling that Taiwanese products were inferior.
I don 't know if they were then, but they definitely aren't now.

Chinese QC can be poor. Stuff made for the Chinese domestic market can be awful, but the same company making products for the western markets can be really good, the QC is better because western buyers demand more. I had a friend who ran a small factory in Kunshan. He said it wasn't hard to compete with Chinese products, because he didn't cut corners, unlike his competitors.
I bought a really good set of carbon rims from China, I couldn't get them from anywhere else, the quality is top notch, but they weren't cheap. If you are willing to pay what you would in Europe or North America you can find excellent quality. If you buy cheap crap from Aliexpress, then you get what you pay for.