Pacing strategy to PR a Climb?
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Unichris, you have basically no data to guide you. I would try to get a rim based speed measurement and HR and start a little slower and then pour it on as you get closer to the top. If you are not gasping like you are dead at the end, you did not go hard enough. GPS is not good enough at slow speeds.
How I would do it? I would estimate how long in time in seconds. I would divide my anerobic power (FRC or W') by that time. I would add that to my FTP and then go into the hill in the big ring out of the saddle and not let up. If I felt good with 30 seconds to go, I would go harder but not usually possible unless a fitness breakthru. There is actually an AP (fee based) that displays this information real-time on your Garmin.
How I would do it? I would estimate how long in time in seconds. I would divide my anerobic power (FRC or W') by that time. I would add that to my FTP and then go into the hill in the big ring out of the saddle and not let up. If I felt good with 30 seconds to go, I would go harder but not usually possible unless a fitness breakthru. There is actually an AP (fee based) that displays this information real-time on your Garmin.
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Well, that was embarrassing. Just back from my worst ever attempt. Took the bike given the amount of icy spots on the ground and the need to run an errand first. Not worth going into the details, beyond the fact that any quest will have its ups and downs (I actually turned around at one point, and then finally decided to finish it anyway).
To be clear I do have a wheel counter speedometer on both bike and unicycle. The bike one I can actually watch steadily, the unicycle just risk a quick glance at now and then when trying to stay on top of a challenging climb.
So for the bike just shooting at a target speed may work. But the truth is I'm clearly not good at generating power seated on the bike yet, so will need to work on that more. Maybe I should first try to PR the 1% rail grade through town, LOL (I don't even feel it on the unicycle, but now I know why my niece has always been so much slower on the way to the park than the way back)
To be clear I do have a wheel counter speedometer on both bike and unicycle. The bike one I can actually watch steadily, the unicycle just risk a quick glance at now and then when trying to stay on top of a challenging climb.
So for the bike just shooting at a target speed may work. But the truth is I'm clearly not good at generating power seated on the bike yet, so will need to work on that more. Maybe I should first try to PR the 1% rail grade through town, LOL (I don't even feel it on the unicycle, but now I know why my niece has always been so much slower on the way to the park than the way back)
Last edited by UniChris; 01-18-22 at 06:07 PM.
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I tend to leave a little in reserve until the last chunk, then use up whatever gas is left- better than starting too hard, and bogging down at the end.
There is a hill on a regular route, about 500', that I did very fast one time, but have never come close to that time again, trying repeatedly. Sigh...
There is a hill on a regular route, about 500', that I did very fast one time, but have never come close to that time again, trying repeatedly. Sigh...
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#29
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Things that have worked for me to PR on short (under 5 minute) climbs.
- If the incline varies, don't tire yourself out so much on the steeper parts that you need to reduce your power and rest on the flatter parts. I don't have anything scientific here, but I think this has worked for me because keeping the power on when its flatter results in a higher percentage speed gain than it does in the steep sections. I feel like I can ride double the speed in the flatter parts, but maybe only 50% faster in the steeper parts.
- Be warmed up, but still extremely fresh. I have done better after warming up for 2-3 minutes than 10-12.
- stay in the saddle as much as you can... until the end. If the end is flat then just stay seated the whole time (of course use your judgement, some climbs might be best suited for a few out of the saddle stretches early on or midway through). When I'm going for a PR, I tend to give it everything when I'm out of the saddle, but according to my power meter I usually can only surpass my seated power for 10-20 seconds. And standing is a big aero disadvantage (not significant at 5mph however).

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If the incline varies, don't tire yourself out so much on the steeper parts that you need to reduce your power and rest on the flatter parts. I don't have anything scientific here, but I think this has worked for me because keeping the power on when its flatter results in a higher percentage speed gain than it does in the steep sections. I feel like I can ride double the speed in the flatter parts, but maybe only 50% faster in the steeper parts.
Be warmed up, but still extremely fresh. I have done better after warming up for 2-3 minutes than 10-12.
stay in the saddle as much as you can... until the end. If the end is flat then just stay seated the whole time (of course use your judgement, some climbs might be best suited for a few out of the saddle stretches early on or midway through).
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To minimize time, always make the harder efforts when going slower or in other words, on the steep part rather than on the flat part.
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Things that have worked for me to PR on short (under 5 minute) climbs.[list][*]If the incline varies, don't tire yourself out so much on the steeper parts that you need to reduce your power and rest on the flatter parts. I don't have anything scientific here, but I think this has worked for me because keeping the power on when its flatter results in a higher percentage speed gain than it does in the steep sections. I feel like I can ride double the speed in the flatter parts, but maybe only 50% faster in the steeper parts.
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yeah mathematically this checks out. a 500 ft steep section will take more seconds than a 500 ft flat section, and if doubling the power doubles the speed then there is more time to be saved on the steeper section. And while going slower, more power goes to increasing speed vs power being lost to higher aerodynamic drag. Like I said my experience is unscientific, but I always end up taking more time when I try and shift more energy expenditure to the steep sections.
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yeah mathematically this checks out. a 500 ft steep section will take more seconds than a 500 ft flat section, and if doubling the power doubles the speed then there is more time to be saved on the steeper section. And while going slower, more power goes to increasing speed vs power being lost to higher aerodynamic drag. Like I said my experience is unscientific, but I always end up taking more time when I try and shift more energy expenditure to the steep sections.
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yeah mathematically this checks out. a 500 ft steep section will take more seconds than a 500 ft flat section, and if doubling the power doubles the speed then there is more time to be saved on the steeper section. And while going slower, more power goes to increasing speed vs power being lost to higher aerodynamic drag. Like I said my experience is unscientific, but I always end up taking more time when I try and shift more energy expenditure to the steep sections.
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Riding the faster parts faster doesn't make as much gain in the overall time as riding the slower parts less slowly.
The folks who argued that have a definite point.
I'm reminded of a classic word problem that takes this to extreme: You're to drive from point A to point B at an average of 60 miles per hour. You drive the first half of the journey at 30 mph. How fast must you drive the remainder?
Last edited by UniChris; 01-18-22 at 08:54 PM.
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When they say this, they don't mean double. Or even 50% harder. Or maybe not even 25% harder.
If you have a 20min climb and you can do 300w for 20min. That's kind of a budget. It doesn't work out to do even 25% extra for a few min then back off. 25% extra is 75w.
They're talking more like do 310 or 315 short/steep then do 290 long/easier. Even then, the average will be less than 300 as 300 is best possible when evenly paced. Lookup "over under intervals" as a workout. That kind of workout is what would be meant by that. Usually the overs are like 105% and the unders 95%.
If you have a 20min climb and you can do 300w for 20min. That's kind of a budget. It doesn't work out to do even 25% extra for a few min then back off. 25% extra is 75w.
They're talking more like do 310 or 315 short/steep then do 290 long/easier. Even then, the average will be less than 300 as 300 is best possible when evenly paced. Lookup "over under intervals" as a workout. That kind of workout is what would be meant by that. Usually the overs are like 105% and the unders 95%.
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O a 3/4 mile climb at 5% grade, I'd be up off the saddle for a significant chunk of the hill - esp on the steeper sections.
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I don't even have very low range gearing, but what I do have is well enough to make it possible seated.
My body may be more used to climbing it in an almost-standing unicycle position, but everything I understand is that this is a climb that should be taken seated on a bike.
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Riding a steeper section at double power will, in fact, give a faster time than riding double power on a less steep section of the same length. But, riding double power on the steeper section requires more effort, because you have to hold double power longer. So, part of your theoretical time advantage is just due to the fact that you're expending more effort. For a more realistic comparison, you must allow for riding at more than double power on the less steep section, so that the overall effort is the same.
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Yeah, you got the science completely back to front there, lol! Using more power on the steeper sections and less on the flatter sections is the most efficient way of minimising your total time. Obviously it's a balance, but that's the way it works. You generally stand to lose more time on a steeper section than you do on a flatter section when you back off the power. Pacing algorithms like BestBikeSplits always have higher power targets on the steeper parts of a climb.
I disagree. On the climb that I mentioned, I analyzed The KOM in relation to my PR, & on the steep section the power/speed was not that different, but on the flatter section the KOM was way faster. By your reasoning, the KOM would have been kind of the reverse- big difference on the steep section in relation to my lesser effort. (The climb in question w/ over 42,000 Strava attempts)
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If you can believe this bicycle calculator, it's better to use more watts on the hills.
I used the standard defaults on everything. The only thing I changed was the grade 0%, -10%, 10% and varied the watts between 150 watts and 200 watts.
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
0% grade flat
11.17% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 18.62 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 20.81 mph.
-10% downhill grade
.01% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 46.15 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 46.76 mph.
10% uphill grade
32% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 3.86 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 5.12 mph.
I used the standard defaults on everything. The only thing I changed was the grade 0%, -10%, 10% and varied the watts between 150 watts and 200 watts.
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
0% grade flat
11.17% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 18.62 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 20.81 mph.
-10% downhill grade
.01% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 46.15 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 46.76 mph.
10% uphill grade
32% faster
If you apply 150 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 3.86 mph.
If you apply 200 watts of power, you will ride at velocity 5.12 mph.

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I disagree. On the climb that I mentioned, I analyzed The KOM in relation to my PR, & on the steep section the power/speed was not that different, but on the flatter section the KOM was way faster. By your reasoning, the KOM would have been kind of the reverse- big difference on the steep section in relation to my lesser effort. (The climb in question w/ over 42,000 Strava attempts)
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yeah mathematically this checks out. a 500 ft steep section will take more seconds than a 500 ft flat section, and if doubling the power doubles the speed then there is more time to be saved on the steeper section. And while going slower, more power goes to increasing speed vs power being lost to higher aerodynamic drag. Like I said my experience is unscientific, but I always end up taking more time when I try and shift more energy expenditure to the steep sections.
I have a 4:06 PB on one climb and have never cracked 4:20 since doing it. I use Strava and wonder if it was a GPS glitch although I did it without power meter and after riding my bike cross country, so, my suffering ability was pretty good. A short 3-4 minute hill is all about suffering.
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But in the realm where I'm riding the air resistance increase if speeding up 6-7 (faster steep) vs 8-9 mph (faster shallow) is not yet a big deal.
For the guy who holds the KOM with an average of maybe 14 mph or so (which might vary well be 10 on the steep and 18 on the shallow) then it could matter.
There's a longer segment encompassing this one that has an additional preview climb and some descent before the main one, there figuring out what speed to carry through that could get into a lot more strategy, though that's beyond the scope of my current little personal quest.
Yesterday I did use the descent to charge the start of the interesting segment, one of my mistakes was likely in keeping the speed up too long into the actual climb. But I also clearly just need to get into pushing myself on the bike more consistently during rides in general, have been using it more for relaxed utility stuff than goal rides.
Last edited by UniChris; 01-19-22 at 10:00 AM.
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It's not my reasoning. It's just real physics. But it doesn't imply that you can go full gas on the steeps and then cruise on the flatter sections. The difference in power might be quite subtle depending on the gradients involved. If you put a link to your Strava segment I'll run it through BestBikeSplit for you. I can guarantee the fastest solution will involve higher power targets on the steeper sections.
This is a fake climb, but looking close you can see when the slope eases and speed goes up I let the power ease up on the Alpe du Zwift:
https://www.strava.com/activities/5449234635/overview
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Crash and burn, baby! Who cares about the PR?

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The other folks in here keep ignoring physiology also. As in you can't hammer at VO2 power for a few minutes of a climb then expect to get anywhere near your PR average power for the full climb.
This is a fake climb, but looking close you can see when the slope eases and speed goes up I let the power ease up on the Alpe du Zwift:
https://www.strava.com/activities/5449234635/overview
This is a fake climb, but looking close you can see when the slope eases and speed goes up I let the power ease up on the Alpe du Zwift:
https://www.strava.com/activities/5449234635/overview
UniChris is ignoring rather simple physics. The easiest way to minimize time to distance is to go hardest when you are going the slowest and easiest when going fastest. Easy/hard is relative. It might be +/- 10-15% off FTP.
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That is a 75 minute climb. Apples to rocks comparison. OP's climb is 3-5 minutes. If a rider has an FTP of 300 watts and W' of 20,000 joules and if the climb is 250 seconds, the rider can ride at 300 watts + (20,0000/250) = 380 watts. The legs have to be fresh, of course.
UniChris is ignoring rather simple physics. The easiest way to minimize time to distance is to go hardest when you are going the slowest and easiest when going fastest. Easy/hard is relative. It might be +/- 10-15% off FTP.
UniChris is ignoring rather simple physics. The easiest way to minimize time to distance is to go hardest when you are going the slowest and easiest when going fastest. Easy/hard is relative. It might be +/- 10-15% off FTP.
Curiosity, how did you get to the W' figure? My inquiring mind would like to learn more how to do that math.
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To be correct I should have said "improvement" instead of "gain"
Last edited by UniChris; 01-19-22 at 10:09 AM.