For fitness does the bike really matter?
#126
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You are correct. My mistake. Doesn’t change the argument, however. Shorter distances require more force to move the bicycle to balance the power equation.
Have you never heard the term “unit distance”. It’s short hand for “pick any distance”. In the work equation, force is acting over a distance. That distance can be a mile or a foot or a nanometer. In Virtus original scenario, he uses miles. The force needed to move the bike over each mile is higher in the mountain bike compared to the road bike.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
Force per unit distance? That's a non-sensical unit. And, no, the force doesn't have to change, because the velocity is different.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#127
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Now this is something we can actually agree on
#128
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You know, the OP did a remarkable job asking his question in a clear straightforward way to which there was a clear simple answer, and avoided the assumptions that generally lead to controversy - and yet here we are, 6 pages later.
I'd say "Gotta love Bike Forums!", but it's not really required....
I'd say "Gotta love Bike Forums!", but it's not really required....
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#129
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Think of it this way: You are tasked with moving eight 10 lb rocks from one end yard to the other by carrying them. Eight trips with a 10 lb rock is relatively easy. Four trips with two 10 lb rocks is harder but still doable. Two trips with four 10 lb rocks would be hard but is a whole lot harder. See where I’m going? A single trip takes a whole lot more effort than any of those other methods. Same work, same energy input (ignore the return trip) but, from a physiological perspective, it’s a whole lot harder to do one trip.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#130
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You are correct. My mistake. Doesn’t change the argument, however. Shorter distances require more force to move the bicycle to balance the power equation.
Have you never heard the term “unit distance”. It’s short hand for “pick any distance”. In the work equation, force is acting over a distance. That distance can be a mile or a foot or a nanometer. In Virtus original scenario, he uses miles. The force needed to move the bike over each mile is higher in the mountain bike compared to the road bike.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
Have you never heard the term “unit distance”. It’s short hand for “pick any distance”. In the work equation, force is acting over a distance. That distance can be a mile or a foot or a nanometer. In Virtus original scenario, he uses miles. The force needed to move the bike over each mile is higher in the mountain bike compared to the road bike.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
1) If you ride a heavier bike at the same power that you ride a lighter bike, and you select gears so that you ride at the same cadence, then you will produce the same force on the pedals. If you ride both bikes at the same cadence and pedal force for the same amount of time, you will do the same amount of mechanical work, and your body won't know the difference between the two.
2) "Force per unit distance" is not a unit that any physicist would use. It is meaningless, and you need to let it go.
3) The OP was very clear that he was interested in the difference between riding different bikes at the "same average HR and perceived effort" for a fixed amount of time (30 minutes). From a work/energy perspective, distance doesn't matter in this scenario. The only part anyone can really quibble over is whether "same average HR and perceived effort" directly translates to "the same power".
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#131
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No, I’m not trolling. Ask yourself which bike you would rather ride in Virtus’ scenario? Assuming smooth road riding and not mountain biking, most people would opt for any bike but the mountain bike…largely because of the large rolling resistance loses in the mountain bike case.
Think of it this way: You are tasked with moving eight 10 lb rocks from one end yard to the other by carrying them. Eight trips with a 10 lb rock is relatively easy. Four trips with two 10 lb rocks is harder but still doable. Two trips with four 10 lb rocks would be hard but is a whole lot harder. See where I’m going? A single trip takes a whole lot more effort than any of those other methods. Same work, same energy input (ignore the return trip) but, from a physiological perspective, it’s a whole lot harder to do one trip.
Think of it this way: You are tasked with moving eight 10 lb rocks from one end yard to the other by carrying them. Eight trips with a 10 lb rock is relatively easy. Four trips with two 10 lb rocks is harder but still doable. Two trips with four 10 lb rocks would be hard but is a whole lot harder. See where I’m going? A single trip takes a whole lot more effort than any of those other methods. Same work, same energy input (ignore the return trip) but, from a physiological perspective, it’s a whole lot harder to do one trip.
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#132
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Or, as The Older Boy just said, "Cut my pizza in 6 slices not 8. I can't eat 8 slices of pizza."
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#133
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No, I’m not trolling. Ask yourself which bike you would rather ride in Virtus’ scenario? Assuming smooth road riding and not mountain biking, most people would opt for any bike but the mountain bike…largely because of the large rolling resistance loses in the mountain bike case.
Think of it this way: You are tasked with moving eight 10 lb rocks from one end yard to the other by carrying them. Eight trips with a 10 lb rock is relatively easy. Four trips with two 10 lb rocks is harder but still doable. Two trips with four 10 lb rocks would be hard but is a whole lot harder. See where I’m going? A single trip takes a whole lot more effort than any of those other methods. Same work, same energy input (ignore the return trip) but, from a physiological perspective, it’s a whole lot harder to do one trip.
The OP is asking about exerting X amount of energy for a Y amount of time. Because of the differences in resistance that you'll see on each of these bikes, they'll necessarily travel different distances, but that doesn't change X energy for Y time.
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#134
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You know, the OP did a remarkable job asking his question in a clear straightforward way to which there was a clear simple answer, and avoided the assumptions that generally lead to controversy - and yet here we are, 6 pages later.
I'd say "Gotta love Bike Forums!", but it's not really required....
I'd say "Gotta love Bike Forums!", but it's not really required....
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#135
don't try this at home.
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Ha, this thread!
For 30 minute rides? Your hybrid is perfect.
Get a road bike for:
Longer rides. I mostly ride more than 2 hours, and usually longer. The road bike is more comfortable for these longer rides, with more hand positions, and the ability to be somewhat more aero.
Group rides! It's easier to keep the group's pace. Group rides are my motivation -- I often find reasons to postpone a bike ride solo. A scheduled ride is good, and I need to ride often enough to keep up.
For 30 minute rides? Your hybrid is perfect.
Get a road bike for:
Longer rides. I mostly ride more than 2 hours, and usually longer. The road bike is more comfortable for these longer rides, with more hand positions, and the ability to be somewhat more aero.
Group rides! It's easier to keep the group's pace. Group rides are my motivation -- I often find reasons to postpone a bike ride solo. A scheduled ride is good, and I need to ride often enough to keep up.
#136
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#137
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#138
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"When I were a lad, we'd ride 30 mph on knobby tires, uphill both ways through snow up to our hips! We didn't care about FTPs!"
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#140
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You are correct. My mistake. Doesn’t change the argument, however. Shorter distances require more force to move the bicycle to balance the power equation.
Have you never heard the term “unit distance”. It’s short hand for “pick any distance”. In the work equation, force is acting over a distance. That distance can be a mile or a foot or a nanometer. In Virtus original scenario, he uses miles. The force needed to move the bike over each mile is higher in the mountain bike compared to the road bike.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
Have you never heard the term “unit distance”. It’s short hand for “pick any distance”. In the work equation, force is acting over a distance. That distance can be a mile or a foot or a nanometer. In Virtus original scenario, he uses miles. The force needed to move the bike over each mile is higher in the mountain bike compared to the road bike.
”Velocity”…speed, really, because velocity is a vector quantity…doesn’t figure into the equation except in the definition of acceleration in the force equation. The force in the work equation is used in overcoming the forces working against the bike and rider, i.e. rolling resistance and wind resistance.
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#141
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But we were 'appy in those days, even though we were poor.
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#143
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I ride a 15kg hybrid that I converted to a 1x drive train with drop bars, and I absolutely love it. Might I be a bit faster with a lighter bike? Possibly. But I can already average nearly 29km/h over distances of 100+ km, and I can ride up to 240km a day without issue on the bike I have, and have a good time doing it, so I don't see the need to go lighter.
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#144
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#145
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I ride a 15kg hybrid that I converted to a 1x drive train with drop bars, and I absolutely love it. Might I be a bit faster with a lighter bike? Possibly. But I can already average nearly 29km/h over distances of 100+ km, and I can ride up to 240km a day without issue on the bike I have, and have a good time doing it, so I don't see the need to go lighter.
#146
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#147
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Personally, a bike which is pleasing to the eye, where everything works perfectly and which goes faster at the same effort inspires me to ride more. More time spent riding, better fitness.
Drop bars, a really comfortable saddle and everything fitting properly are important, too.
Drop bars, a really comfortable saddle and everything fitting properly are important, too.
#148
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Even a 30 min. ride on a bike with bad fit, especially the wrong seat, seat height and/or setback can be a real pain----in the knees and/or arse.
#149
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Wrong
Wrong. And horribly ill-informed
Maybe not wrong, but more in line with a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Wrong. And horribly ill-informed
Maybe not wrong, but more in line with a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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#150
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The only comfort issue I have on my hybrid is my arms start to really fatigue when I get to 45-50 minutes of "hard" riding. I put on a set of Ergon GP3 grips which helps but they're still wider than ideal I think.