Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Bandits and Pirates -- on Event Fees

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Bandits and Pirates -- on Event Fees

Old 04-09-22, 11:43 AM
  #1  
Bulette
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked 90 Times in 46 Posts
Bandits and Pirates -- on Event Fees

I'm curious to hear some opinions and discussion to perhaps reconsider my own perspectives, here. I mostly ride alone, and have become very self-sufficient for it. "Self-sufficiency", in this case, often means stopping a town or two over and spending some cash at a local bakery, donut shop, or at minimum, the C-store. And, as much as I appreciate their service, I also get a 'good feeling' about supporting a local establishment with the hope that they will stay in business for future rides.

Now then, either I've become more involved in the "cycling scene" the last few years, or there really has been an increase in the number of organized event rides, often times with a small (or not so small entry fee). Sometimes, the event organizers will pitch the event as supporting the local community (and sometimes there are legitimate charity drives to speak of). But in other cases, it seems like the pitch to support local is somewhat hollow -- we pay $50-100 and the organizer provides water, snacks, and sometimes even brings along their own food-truck vendors and all -- on these types of rides, then, most riders will rarely step off the route, rarely venture into any C-Store, or support any local diners or dives.

1. If an organized ride uses entirely public right-of-way, and the entrance fee is more 'profit' than 'charity', would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'**? Why, or why not?
2. Does this change if an organized ride is more so for 'charity'? (Has anybody ever even seen a 'bandit' on an MS150?)
3. Does the price of a ride influence these thoughts? I.e.: A Local Shop Ride where $20 is meant to cover the mid-way water tent (which you might not need) vs a "Big Corporate Sponsor" $60 ride where fees include lunch and a t-shirt (which you do not need)?

** For clarity -- riding along 'bandit' here should assume that you do not and will not need any of the organizers' resources (water, mechanical, SAG, etc), and that you have your own safety net (Uber, family, etc).
Bulette is offline  
Likes For Bulette:
Old 04-09-22, 11:52 AM
  #2  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,111
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3413 Post(s)
Liked 871 Times in 603 Posts
Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
1. If an organized ride uses entirely public right-of-way, and the entrance fee is more 'profit' than 'charity', would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'**? Why, or why not?
Generally speaking, these don't make much "profit".
njkayaker is offline  
Likes For njkayaker:
Old 04-09-22, 11:56 AM
  #3  
epnnf
Senior Member
 
epnnf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 336

Bikes: 2016 Masi strada vita due, 2019 Kona Dew Plus

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 228 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 45 Posts
fwiw, Ive never done a charity ride- where you have to collect >$50, or even upwards of $500. The organized rides I go on typically cost around $20; more if you get a shirt (not jersey). Sure, I could bring my own nrg bar, but thats not the point- point is to get together w/riding buds, old & new. Ive never been a bandit- not sure if Ive ever seen anybody else do that; thats really low class.
epnnf is offline  
Likes For epnnf:
Old 04-09-22, 12:22 PM
  #4  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,049
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 3,772 Times in 1,941 Posts
If you don't pay, stay the eff away. This is so simple. Poaching is poaching, whether you think the ride is "deserving" or not.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 12:22 PM
  #5  
Troul 
:D
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 5,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 1,719 Times in 1,174 Posts
Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
1. If an organized ride uses entirely public right-of-way, and the entrance fee is more 'profit' than 'charity', would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'**? Why, or why not?
If it's a route [part] I normally ride, no. If I am aware of the event taking place prior, I may try a backup route or stet the ride. It's how I am & it's my preference.

Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
2. Does this change if an organized ride is more so for 'charity'? (Has anybody ever even seen a 'bandit' on an MS150?)
Generally, am unlikely to participate in charity rides. Something always throws me off for joining in; rules, time, location, etc

Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
3. Does the price of a ride influence these thoughts? I.e.: A Local Shop Ride where $20 is meant to cover the mid-way water tent (which you might not need) vs a "Big Corporate Sponsor" $60 ride where fees include lunch and a t-shirt (which you do not need)?
Yes. Too low & it'll often be a poor experience... based on my experience. Too high, my expectations overall get set too high for a major blow.

Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
Now then, either I've become more involved in the "cycling scene" the last few years, or there really has been an increase in the number of organized event rides, often times with a small (or not so small entry fee).
You're not alone in thinking such. Some rides that were small/moderate in size grew too big & the "rules" along with costs changed, rendering the events unfavorable to me.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 01:28 PM
  #6  
Mojo31
...
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 7,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5332 Post(s)
Liked 3,164 Times in 1,748 Posts
Ask Larry Sellerz. He has fully analyzed the issue.
Mojo31 is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 01:55 PM
  #7  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,173
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4984 Post(s)
Liked 7,223 Times in 3,131 Posts
Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
Ask Larry Sellerz. He has fully analyzed the issue.
Yeah. We just did this. The answer is that it is not okay to poach a for-fee ride. Find another road.
Koyote is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 01:55 PM
  #8  
Pratt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 695
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked 255 Times in 167 Posts
A couple of years ago I rode the Erie Canal, E to W. I passed the W to E, official ride at a feed stop. They invited me to partake, and I told them I was a freeloader, they said eat anyway, so I did.
Pratt is offline  
Likes For Pratt:
Old 04-09-22, 01:57 PM
  #9  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Yeah. We just did this. The answer is that it is not okay to poach a for-fee ride. Find another road.
Itís deja vu all over again.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 04-09-22, 02:02 PM
  #10  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,173
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4984 Post(s)
Liked 7,223 Times in 3,131 Posts
Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
** For clarity -- riding along 'bandit' here should assume that you do not and will not need any of the organizers' resources (water, mechanical, SAG, etc), and that you have your own safety net (Uber, family, etc).
Sure, you're entitled to use the same roads -- nothing illegal about it. But there are plenty of other roads; why would you want to pretend to be on an organized ride when you haven't ponied up the fee?

And by the way, both you and LarrySellerz seem to believe that this behavior is justified if the fee is 'too high.' But that's entirely subjective...And since plenty of other riders voluntarily paid the fee, perhaps you might justly be described as a cheap deadbeat.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 04-09-22, 02:02 PM
  #11  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
A couple of years ago I rode the Erie Canal, E to W. I passed the W to E, official ride at a feed stop. They invited me to partake, and I told them I was a freeloader, they said eat anyway, so I did.
I ended up riding and camping with ACAís Cycle Montana in 2016. I paid my own camping fee even though the campground owner would never have known I was not with the tour and bought my own dinner groceries, but I got invited to join the tour for breakfast the next morning.

Crossed paths with the same tour two years earlier at one of their lunch stops. The staff offered me snacks.

Last edited by indyfabz; 04-09-22 at 02:11 PM.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 04-09-22, 02:07 PM
  #12  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Around these parts, ďbanditryĒ means you actually help yourself to ride amenities, not just ride on the same roads.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 04-09-22, 02:09 PM
  #13  
Mojo31
...
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 7,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5332 Post(s)
Liked 3,164 Times in 1,748 Posts
If you’re invited to join in, it’s one thing. If not asked, it’s altogether different.

Kind of like crashing a wedding reception when you’re not invited and didn’t bring a gift.
Mojo31 is offline  
Likes For Mojo31:
Old 04-09-22, 02:12 PM
  #14  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,819
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1426 Post(s)
Liked 863 Times in 458 Posts
Through the late 70's and into 92 our shop sponsored two rides a summer. We had exceptional turnout, upwards of 200 riders every time. Entry fee was $10 in the beginning to cover cost of insurance and food. Did not make a dime off the entry fees, and sales of spare tubes, bags and such didn't cover employee wages for the event. It was a financial loss, however it was part of the marketing budget, thus accepted as a cost of advertising.
The last ride we did before pulling the plug we did not get a rider from the insurance co. to cover it, we just did it as insurance was 6000 bucks for the event. An entry fee of $30 would have been needed to cover the cost of the insurance alone.
Believe me if you are riding on a group ride for $20, the organizers are doing you a favor. To jump into an organized ride without paying the entry fee is something I would not intentionally do.
TiHabanero is offline  
Likes For TiHabanero:
Old 04-09-22, 02:13 PM
  #15  
Rolla
Victimless Criminal
 
Rolla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 2,378
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1045 Post(s)
Liked 2,490 Times in 1,114 Posts
Originally Posted by Bulette View Post
For clarity -- riding along 'bandit' here should assume that you do not and will not need any of the organizers' resources (water, mechanical, SAG, etc), and that you have your own safety net.
But you are using their resources. Someone organized the ride, mapped and marked the route, promoted the event, and made it happen. That takes resources, for which your participation obligates you to contribute, whether you eat their bananas or not.
Rolla is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 02:13 PM
  #16  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
If youíre invited to join in, itís one thing. If not asked, itís altogether different.

Kind of like crashing a wedding reception when youíre not invited and didnít bring a gift.

indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 04-09-22, 02:18 PM
  #17  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
But you are using their resources. Someone organized the ride, mapped and marked the route, promoted the event, and made it happen. That takes resources, to which your participation obligates you to contribute, whether you eat their bananas or use their support or not.
Iíve been out on tour and on day rides that have just happened to use the same roads as organized rides. Planned my own routes, had my own cue sheets and had no idea about the events. How did I use their resources?
indyfabz is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 02:22 PM
  #18  
Rolla
Victimless Criminal
 
Rolla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 2,378
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1045 Post(s)
Liked 2,490 Times in 1,114 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
I’ve been out on tour and on day rides that have just happened to use the same roads as organized rides. Planned my own routes, had my own cue sheets and had no idea about the events. How did I use their resources?
Irrelevant. A coincidental convergence of routes is not the scenario the OP is talking about.

When he asks, "would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'," he implies that it was a planned, conscious choice to participate without paying.

Last edited by Rolla; 04-09-22 at 02:25 PM.
Rolla is offline  
Likes For Rolla:
Old 04-09-22, 02:30 PM
  #19  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,173
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4984 Post(s)
Liked 7,223 Times in 3,131 Posts
Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Irrelevant. A coincidental convergence of routes is not the scenario the OP is talking about.

When he asks, "would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'," he implies that it was a planned, conscious choice to participate without paying.
Agreed. Indy is describing genuine coincidence; Larry and the OP are premeditating.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 04-09-22, 02:34 PM
  #20  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,049
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 3,772 Times in 1,941 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Sure, you're entitled to use the same roads -- nothing illegal about it. But there are plenty of other roads; why would you want to pretend to be on an organized ride when you haven't ponied up the fee?

And by the way, both you and LarrySellerz seem to believe that this behavior is justified if the fee is 'too high.' But that's entirely subjective...And since plenty of other riders voluntarily paid the fee, perhaps you might justly be described as a cheap deadbeat.
Yep. Besides which, charity rides often bring out folks brimming with enthusiasm but lacking in skills. Bless their hearts but you could go hoarse. "On your left! NO NO the other left...."
shelbyfv is offline  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 04-09-22, 03:16 PM
  #21  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Irrelevant. A coincidental convergence of routes is not the scenario the OP is talking about.

When he asks, "would you feel guilty about riding along as a 'bandit'," he implies that it was a planned, conscious choice to participate without paying.
Went back and reread the OP with a more discerning eye and my good glasses. I agree with you. Sorry for the confusion.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 04-09-22, 03:51 PM
  #22  
CAT7RDR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 1,595

Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 624 Post(s)
Liked 1,345 Times in 684 Posts
Only happened once when riding up Hwy 39 in the San Gabriel Mtns I passed a large spread out group of riders doing a diabetes charity ride.
Made some small talk with a few and was invited to stop at the water station up the road. I declined because I "DID NOT PAY FOR IT. "
CAT7RDR is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 05:44 PM
  #23  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 34,243
Mentioned: 202 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15551 Post(s)
Liked 9,577 Times in 4,698 Posts
Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
Only happened once when riding up Hwy 39 in the San Gabriel Mtns I passed a large spread out group of riders doing a diabetes charity ride.
Made some small talk with a few and was invited to stop at the water station up the road. I declined because I "DID NOT PAY FOR IT. "
Proper response. If they then extend an invite, different story​​​​​.
indyfabz is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 06:36 PM
  #24  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,049
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 3,772 Times in 1,941 Posts
This thread and the seatbag thread. Ride poachers and never-tubers. The clueless sense of personal entitlement boggles. Were they never taught or were they just born with a short circuit?
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 04-09-22, 06:53 PM
  #25  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Liked 754 Times in 396 Posts
What is wrong with someone that they would be cheap and bitter enough that they would feel the need to tag along with an event ride?
Kinda sorta equal parts pathetic and creepy
downhillmaster is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.