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NYTimes on Bike Safety

Old 04-22-22, 08:34 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by grizzly59 View Post
Around here there are so many people looking a their phones while driving that the cops must have given up ticketing anyone for doing it. There was a law passed against it with the Gov giving a speech, etc., promptly forgotten about. Cops have a laptop mounted in the front seat and I often see them looking at that and driving.
Are you Minnesotan? Because exactly that happened here.
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Old 04-22-22, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by A350driver View Post
Safety is the bike riderís responsibility as much as the automobile driver. I wonít ride where I know itís going to be busy with car/bus/truck traffic, or at the busiest time of day. I get up at 5am and get it done before rush hour, or go out to the woods. If I lived in a city I wouldnít ride at all!
This is exactly the point of the NYT editorial. Most/all of the US has prioritized driving above all other modes of transport, and therefore our roadways are designed to prioritize driving, and are generally not very safe for biking or walking.

This is not just a "city" problem. Suburban streets are often multi-lane arterials with large intersections that are difficult to cross, have no sidewalks. Most suburban commercial development relies on massive parking lots, etc. The expectation in the suburbs is that walking and biking only occurs as a recreational activity in parks or on designated trails. The only people riding bikes in the road are "enthusiasts" willing to get up at 5am.

Other parts of the world decided that this wasn't acceptable and changed their thinking. In many European cities, the idea of driving a 5000lb SUV's to ferry kids to/from schools that would otherwise be a 10-15 minute walk or bike ride is insane. In the US, it's not just the norm, it's often the only option.
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Old 04-22-22, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
This is exactly the point of the NYT editorial. Most/all of the US has prioritized driving above all other modes of transport, and therefore our roadways are designed to prioritize driving, and are generally not very safe for biking or walking.

This is not just a "city" problem. Suburban streets are often multi-lane arterials with large intersections that are difficult to cross, have no sidewalks. Most suburban commercial development relies on massive parking lots, etc. The expectation in the suburbs is that walking and biking only occurs as a recreational activity in parks or on designated trails. The only people riding bikes in the road are "enthusiasts" willing to get up at 5am.

Other parts of the world decided that this wasn't acceptable and changed their thinking. In many European cities, the idea of driving a 5000lb SUV's to ferry kids to/from schools that would otherwise be a 10-15 minute walk or bike ride is insane. In the US, it's not just the norm, it's often the only option.
It's a vicious cycle - now, only a good guy with a motor vehicle can stop a bad guy with a motor vehicle, so we obviously need more motor vehicles.
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Old 04-22-22, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
This is exactly the point of the NYT editorial. Most/all of the US has prioritized driving above all other modes of transport, and therefore our roadways are designed to prioritize driving, and are generally not very safe for biking or walking.

This is not just a "city" problem. Suburban streets are often multi-lane arterials with large intersections that are difficult to cross, have no sidewalks. Most suburban commercial development relies on massive parking lots, etc. The expectation in the suburbs is that walking and biking only occurs as a recreational activity in parks or on designated trails. The only people riding bikes in the road are "enthusiasts" willing to get up at 5am.

Other parts of the world decided that this wasn't acceptable and changed their thinking. In many European cities, the idea of driving a 5000lb SUV's to ferry kids to/from schools that would otherwise be a 10-15 minute walk or bike ride is insane. In the US, it's not just the norm, it's often the only option.
Or low-wage workers who can't afford a car, and get around on an old Bike Boom-aged bike with the drops turned up to the sky, or a 30 year old mountain bike. You see a lot of them here.
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Old 04-22-22, 10:09 AM
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It would be great if every city was like Amsterdam, with dedicated bike lanes and bike parking everywhere but that’s never going to happen in America, we’re too addicted to our SUVs and most Americans think anyone on a bicycle should be riding on the sidewalk. Maybe if our gas prices get up to over $6/gallon and stay there for the next 10 years attitudes towards bicycles in cities will change but until that happens, look out for the idiots!
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Old 04-22-22, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by A350driver View Post
It would be great if every city was like Amsterdam, with dedicated bike lanes and bike parking everywhere but thatís never going to happen in America, weíre too addicted to our SUVs and most Americans think anyone on a bicycle should be riding on the sidewalk. Maybe if our gas prices get up to over $6/gallon and stay there for the next 10 years attitudes towards bicycles in cities will change but until that happens, look out for the idiots!
Amsterdam wasn't always like that either. It was full of cars in the 1970's with car-focused roadways. The change you see today is a direct result of decades of policy shift.

We could have that in the US if people wanted it. Too many people just throw their hands up and say "we can't do that here" though, and we end up designing roadways and cities around cars instead because it's just the way it is.
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Old 04-22-22, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It's a vicious cycle - now, only a good guy with a motor vehicle can stop a bad guy with a motor vehicle, so we obviously need more motor vehicles.
Yup. And our vehicles get bigger and bigger in some kind of weird arms race, which is perceived as safer for the occupants, but is actually far more dangerous for anyone on foot or bike. A modern 3 row SUV is so difficult to see out of that they require multiple cameras and sensors to avoid crashing into anything. If you hit a pedestrian with one of these, they get pulled under the vehicle and crushed, rather than knocked up and over the hood where they have a better chance of surviving.




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Old 04-22-22, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
A modern 3 row SUV is so difficult to see out of that they require multiple cameras and sensors to avoid crashing into anything. If you hit a pedestrian with one of these, they get pulled under the vehicle and crushed, rather than knocked up and over the hood where they have a better chance of surviving.




Yeah, the front ends getting higher and more blocky is pretty noticeable, which is funny, because I thought I recalled semi-recent (decade or so) legislation to lower the front ends of vehicles. I specifically remember a split image of a BMW to show how it would affect the aesthetics. Maybe it was a proposal that didn't get anywhere.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Or low-wage workers who can't afford a car, and get around on an old Bike Boom-aged bike with the drops turned up to the sky, or a 30 year old mountain bike. You see a lot of them here.

You never see this though:








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Old 04-22-22, 11:13 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yeah, the front ends getting higher and more blocky is pretty noticeable, which is funny, because I thought I recalled semi-recent (decade or so) legislation to lower the front ends of vehicles. I specifically remember a split image of a BMW to show how it would affect the aesthetics. Maybe it was a proposal that didn't get anywhere.
It's all about the macho marketing:

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Old 04-22-22, 11:18 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by A350driver View Post
It would be great if every city was like Amsterdam, with dedicated bike lanes and bike parking everywhere but thatís never going to happen in America, weíre too addicted to our SUVs and most Americans think anyone on a bicycle should be riding on the sidewalk. Maybe if our gas prices get up to over $6/gallon and stay there for the next 10 years attitudes towards bicycles in cities will change but until that happens, look out for the idiots!
Decisions were made 70-80 years ago that put us on this path, and they will be hard to undo. I live in a suburb which was designed for convenient walking. All the housing is within 1/2 mile of the train station that would take residents to jobs in the city. There are parks and a shopping center, and once upon a time a supermarket all within an easy walk. The development started before WWII. Those built later spread the houses out more, put them farther from transit and shopping, and essentially built them around the car. For the last 60 years, suburbs have been almost exclusively designed around cars.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
It's all about the macho marketing:
Ugh - it's so dumb. I forget why, but I needed to rent a vehicle and ended up with an SUV. It was a blocky, wanna-be macho ****er and it sucked. The worst visibility that I've experienced and it actually had less cargo space than my considerably smaller VW wagon.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
You never see this though:
I have seen some of that or similar in Philly.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
It's all about the macho marketing:

Where is the dislike button?!?

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Old 04-22-22, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Ugh - it's so dumb. I forget why, but I needed to rent a vehicle and ended up with an SUV. It was a blocky, wanna-be macho ****er and it sucked. The worst visibility that I've experienced and it actually had less cargo space than my considerably smaller VW wagon.
Next time, ask for a Saturn.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:42 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Ugh - it's so dumb. I forget why, but I needed to rent a vehicle and ended up with an SUV. It was a blocky, wanna-be macho ****er and it sucked. The worst visibility that I've experienced and it actually had less cargo space than my considerably smaller VW wagon.
The problem is, it tends to lead to an "arms race" - the more people who drive pickups and SUVs, the more people feel the need for one. Not so much to "keep up with the Joneses" as simply to feel safe, or even just see through the vehicle ahead. It used to be, when the vast majority of vehicle were sedans and wagons, that you'd see through the car ahead of you to alert you to traffic issues ahead. Now the vehicle ahead is likely taller, and wider, and basically blocks your view. So you feel less safe unless you, too sit higher so you can once again see around/through the vehicle ahead. And of course if everyone else is driving 5000 lbs of blocky steel, a 3000 lb sedan is at a disadvantage in a collision.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:58 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
The problem is, it tends to lead to an "arms race" - the more people who drive pickups and SUVs, the more people feel the need for one. Not so much to "keep up with the Joneses" as simply to feel safe, or even just see through the vehicle ahead. It used to be, when the vast majority of vehicle were sedans and wagons, that you'd see through the car ahead of you to alert you to traffic issues ahead. Now the vehicle ahead is likely taller, and wider, and basically blocks your view. So you feel less safe unless you, too sit higher so you can once again see around/through the vehicle ahead. And of course if everyone else is driving 5000 lbs of blocky steel, a 3000 lb sedan is at a disadvantage in a collision.
Yup. See my previous, snarky, NRA-inspired post.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
Yup. And our vehicles get bigger and bigger in some kind of weird arms race, which is perceived as safer for the occupants, but is actually far more dangerous for anyone on foot or bike. A modern 3 row SUV is so difficult to see out of that they require multiple cameras and sensors to avoid crashing into anything. If you hit a pedestrian with one of these, they get pulled under the vehicle and crushed, rather than knocked up and over the hood where they have a better chance of surviving.




The size and style of a vehicle is completely irrelevant....A distracted driver in small car is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The size and style of a vehicle is completely irrelevant....A distracted driver in small car is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
That's some bargain-basement logic - seeing as distracted drivers aren't limited to a particular kind of vehicle, the increasing size of vehicles is absolutely relevant.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Not mentioned in the article, but have you noticed how much taller, squarer, and (for want of a better term) more brutal-looking the front ends of pickup trucks have become?
It's been mentioned before that the currently popular style is to have 'battering ram' front ends on trucks because it makes them look 'tougher' and even bigger than they actually are. Admittedly they need lots of radiator, but current design goes well beyond the requirement.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
That's some bargain-basement logic - seeing as distracted drivers aren't limited to a particular kind of vehicle, the increasing size of vehicles is absolutely relevant.
Distracted drivers and aggressive drivers are the problem.....not the type or style of a vehicle.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The size and style of a vehicle is completely irrelevant....A distracted driver in small car is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
A distracted driver in a large full size truck is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Distracted drivers and aggressive drivers are the problem.....not the type or style of a vehicle.
Two things can both be problematic. They're not mutually exclusive.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:23 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
A distracted driver in a large full size truck is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
So what ???....we all have to be punished and have our choices limited because of few bad apples out there ???
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Old 04-22-22, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Two things can both be problematic. They're not mutually exclusive.
You can't blame or punish an inanimate object for causing death or damage. It's the human using that particular object who is to blame and should be punished if they misuse that object .
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