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Titanium rear derailleur hanger

Old 05-22-22, 09:32 AM
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pennpaul
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Titanium rear derailleur hanger

I was looking at titanium road/touring frames from various manufacturers and noticed many have integrated rear derailleur hangers. I've only owned aluminum frames (MTB, road, gravel) and they all have replaceable hangers. Should an integrated hanger make me nervous, or is titanium *that* awesome?
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Old 05-22-22, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
I was looking at titanium road/touring frames from various manufacturers and noticed many have integrated rear derailleur hangers. I've only owned aluminum frames (MTB, road, gravel) and they all have replaceable hangers. Should an integrated hanger make me nervous, or is titanium *that* awesome?
Titanium is pretty resilient and can be cold set repeatedly so not a real issue in my view. The only problem is the hanger is so tough that the derailleur will the the point of failure not the hanger.
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Old 05-22-22, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Titanium is pretty resilient and can be cold set repeatedly so not a real issue in my view. The only problem is the hanger is so tough that the derailleur will the the point of failure not the hanger.
Even a derailleur is replaceable. What you really don't want is for the hanger to be stronger than the frame.
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Old 05-22-22, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
Titanium is pretty resilient and can be cold set repeatedly so not a real issue in my view. The only problem is the hanger is so tough that the derailleur will the the point of failure not the hanger.
Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
Even a derailleur is replaceable. What you really don't want is for the hanger to be stronger than the frame.
This. I had a chain fail and kink, which got caught in the RD and simply ripped the RD off the Ti frame. The fame was fine and because it was a defective chain I even got Shimano to give me a new chain and RD. That was the original CN-6700 btw, which is why they fairly quickly replaced that with the CN-6701.

TL;DR not a problem.
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Old 05-22-22, 03:12 PM
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This is my experience as a shop mechanic for several decades. The replaceable Der hangers weaken over time. I don't know exactly why, but they come through often enough out of alignment for me to believe this does happen. I have not seen a titanium frame with an integrated hanger go out of alignment or break off in a mishap.
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Old 05-22-22, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
This is my experience as a shop mechanic for several decades. The replaceable Der hangers weaken over time. I don't know exactly why, but they come through often enough out of alignment for me to believe this does happen. I have not seen a titanium frame with an integrated hanger go out of alignment or break off in a mishap.
They're aluminum, of course they have a short fatigue life.
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Old 05-22-22, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
This is my experience as a shop mechanic for several decades. The replaceable Der hangers weaken over time. I don't know exactly why, but they come through often enough out of alignment for me to believe this does happen. I have not seen a titanium frame with an integrated hanger go out of alignment or break off in a mishap.
They are somewhat designed to fail the idea is those break and save your nice derailleur and your frame. I would much rather spend 20-40 bucks on a hanger than 100-5000 on a new frame and 40-500 on a new derailleur (obviously depending on what derailleur or frame you have an such)
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Old 05-22-22, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
I was looking at titanium road/touring frames from various manufacturers and noticed many have integrated rear derailleur hangers. I've only owned aluminum frames (MTB, road, gravel) and they all have replaceable hangers. Should an integrated hanger make me nervous, or is titanium *that* awesome?
Someone more knowledgeable can weigh in, but I always saw the advent of replaceable RD hangers as being a result of relatively "non-repairable" frame materials, like Al and CF. I don't remember ever seeing a replaceable hanger on steel frames in my youth, probably because steel could be easily reset without significantly weakening the metal, and relatively easily welded if necessary. At the same time, I don't recall encountering the concept of the hanger as a sacrificial part to save the RD in the event of a crash - if you trashed the RD, those were the breaks.
FWIW, my 22-year-old Ti frame has a non-replaceable hanger fabricated from 5/16" 6/4 Ti plate. I'm pretty sure my RD will disintegrate before this hanger budges, and if so, them's the breaks - time for a new RD
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Old 05-22-22, 07:03 PM
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Although it would indeed suck to break my Di2 rear derailleur, it is the possibility of breaking the frame with the integrated hanger that has me worried.

Those modular dropouts (which include the hanger) I would think would be ideal (but don't have any particularly useful insight).
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Old 05-24-22, 11:47 AM
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Titanium is almost as strong as steel, and the hanger would be just as good as a steel bike that doesnt have a replaceable hanger.
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Old 05-24-22, 01:33 PM
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I can't imagine what it would take to bend the DR hanger on my Litespeed. That thing is pretty darn thick to start with and Ti is tough stuff.
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Old 05-24-22, 03:44 PM
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"They are somewhat designed to fail the idea is those break and save your nice derailleur and your frame."

Yes, they are designed to fail in the event of a maladjusted derailleur or a crash. What I am seeing is the hangers become weak over time under normal use and require realignment and eventually replacement after the hanger has been realigned a few times. Some designs are more susceptible to this than others.
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Old 05-24-22, 03:47 PM
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We have two recent ti bikes in the garage - 2021 Lynskey and 2021 Litespeed. They both have replaceable hangers - which are aluminum, and available from the companies. The old 96 Litespeed Classic does not have a replaceable hanger.

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Old 05-24-22, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
is titanium *that* awesome?
Yup. Nothing you will do to shred a derailleur will phase a Ti frame.
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Old 05-25-22, 08:01 AM
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Titanium is repairable, but it will take a shop with a special heliarc setup for titanium to do it, a shop that specializes in welding titanium, then after it is welded you have to give the frame to a mechanic capable of re-shaping and re-tapping the hanger competently so they do not screw it up and have to send it back to the welder again.

I have destroyed to integrated hangers on steel frames in my life, one in a bad crash, one by simply not having the rear derailleur adjusted correctly and sucking the chain behind the big sprocket and bending the heck out of everything. I was able to repair both frames myself, probably because I grew up with an oxy/acetylene torch in one hand, and also used to work at a metal-fab shop when I was a young man among other experiences.

The metal fab shop I worked at had jobs using titanium and if there was a mistake made on a part we had to send it out to have it welded up, which did not help the profit-margin.

So you just have to look at the chances of you destroying the hanger vs. the cost of having it repaired vs. how much good a titanium frame will really do you. I don't think the weight saving of a titanium frame, and it's cost, is going to make any difference in anyone's life unless they are a pro-cyclist making a living at it, for anyone else it is just jewelry.
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Old 05-25-22, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
So you just have to look at the chances of you destroying the hanger vs. the cost of having it repaired vs. how much good a titanium frame will really do you. I don't think the weight saving of a titanium frame, and it's cost, is going to make any difference in anyone's life unless they are a pro-cyclist making a living at it, for anyone else it is just jewelry.
You could say the same about almost anything cycling-related beyond a plain steel single-speed bike with a coaster brake, yet here we are with our crazy jewelry
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Old 05-25-22, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
I don't think the weight saving of a titanium frame, and it's cost, is going to make any difference in anyone's life unless they are a pro-cyclist making a living at it, for anyone else it is just jewelry.
With a nod towards ride quality. Ti makes a difference there IMHO.
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Old 05-26-22, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
You could say the same about almost anything cycling-related beyond a plain steel single-speed bike with a coaster brake, yet here we are with our crazy jewelry
Wrong. Multi-speed bikes have a proven practical use, they make it much easier for people to ride up grades, drop bars are proven to let people travel more quickly, coaster brakes are proven to have more drag than rim-brakes etc.. A lot of improvements in the bike as practical transportation have been made. Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities, but if they were worth it then 99.99% of the bicycles out there would not be steel or aluminum.
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Old 05-26-22, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities, but if they were worth it then 99.99% of the bicycles out there would not be steel or aluminum.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, whether or not it is worth it is up to the person buying. Ti has many attributes in many applications that make it superior to steel, aluminum or carbon fibre. Alas it is more expensive to manufacture. Is it the end all be all ....nothing really is. It definitely rides differently than other frame materials and many people want one for this reason. It also never corrodes and a scratch can be buffed out in a few minutes with a scotch brite pad.

Again to the OPs question ....a Ti DR hanger will be plenty tough ..... and unless is on BF you probably won't get many people calling you out for having one.

Oh and mine was worth it because I bought a 20+ year old one off of EBAY for a good price !
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Old 05-26-22, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
"They are somewhat designed to fail the idea is those break and save your nice derailleur and your frame."

Yes, they are designed to fail in the event of a maladjusted derailleur or a crash. What I am seeing is the hangers become weak over time under normal use and require realignment and eventually replacement after the hanger has been realigned a few times. Some designs are more susceptible to this than others.
The hanger only becomes weak over time because you are realigning it. You can probably get away with trying to bend a replaceable derailer hanger once. Any more than that is questionable. Even that once is somewhat questionable.

I have a few bikes with replaceable hangers that have over 10,000 miles on them. I have never had to adjust the hanger at all, much less periodically. Iíve also never replaced one of my own. As a long time volunteer at a co-op where we see just how badly bicycles can be treated, Iíve only had to replace a few (out of close to 15,000 bikes Iíve worked on) and most of those were obviously damaged.
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Old 05-26-22, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Wrong. Multi-speed bikes have a proven practical use, they make it much easier for people to ride up grades, drop bars are proven to let people travel more quickly, coaster brakes are proven to have more drag than rim-brakes etc.. A lot of improvements in the bike as practical transportation have been made. Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities, but if they were worth it then 99.99% of the bicycles out there would not be steel or aluminum.
Oh boy....
Can you give me the official beng1 verdict on carbon fiber? I see a lot of those racer types using it, and now even ordinary people (racer wannabees!) are adopting it! Damn' plastic frippery, if you ask me....
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Old 05-26-22, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Wrong. Multi-speed bikes have a proven practical use, they make it much easier for people to ride up grades, drop bars are proven to let people travel more quickly, coaster brakes are proven to have more drag than rim-brakes etc.. A lot of improvements in the bike as practical transportation have been made. Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities, but if they were worth it then 99.99% of the bicycles out there would not be steel or aluminum.
I'm sorry but that's nonsensical. You're arguing that if one material makes better frames than others, that EVERYONE would ignore the hugely higher cost of manufacturing the frames just to have those, even for the bikes they buy for their kids. Don't be silly.
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Old 05-26-22, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Litespud View Post
Oh boy....
Can you give me the official beng1 verdict on carbon fiber? I see a lot of those racer types using it, and now even ordinary people (racer wannabees!) are adopting it! Damn' plastic frippery, if you ask me....
Hey, if CF were better, all bikes - well, 99.99% of them, anyway - would be made of it. Even kids' balance bikes.
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Old 05-26-22, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
...Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities, but if they were worth it then 99.99% of the bicycles out there would not be steel or aluminum.
Your info is very dated at best, Dedacciai, Haynes, Reynolds, Sandvik, frame tube suppliers all produce diameters to build a frame as stiff or supple as you like, talk to a frame builder. I come from heavy industry where we use Ti and can tell you it is expensive to buy and fabricate. It is more difficult to weld and/or machine. Weld contamination can result in failures without painstaking procedures.

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Old 05-26-22, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Titanium is not as stiff as steel so it may have different ride qualities
If a Ti frame has different ride qualities than a steel frame that will be because the frames were not designed to the same goal. When designed to the same goal, the difference between a steel and a Ti frame will be that the Ti frame will be lighter and more expensive. And it won't corrode.
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