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-   -   It seems Di2 is here to stay. (https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1254341-seems-di2-here-stay.html)

GhostRider62 07-01-22 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by base2 (Post 22560512)
Post 2: Avoided cable cost, adjustability in cold.

Post 4: Speed of shift. Touch of button. Grown on poster over time.

Post 8: Arthritis. To get hydro brake. (Bundled tech)

Post 10: To allow automatic systems.

Post 12: Has both, plans to go e-shift, again.

Post 13: Maintenance avoidance.

Post16: Maintenance, adjustment. Plans to keep.

Post 23: Trimming.

Post 30: Never anything else again.

Post 32: Easy install.

Post 35: Different modes. Sequential shifting.

Post 40: Shifting modes. Lever designation.

...& of course Good ol' post 26: Never missed a shift, reliable, & uniquely suited to competitive endeavors. No plans to go back indicated.

Did you read the thread?




---------
Thanks, all.
I do feel enlightened. Not much of the benefits listed here are readily apparent from a few short-ish test rides. I do feel my question has been satisfactorily answered.

In particular, the possibility for automated drivetrains (Nuvinci, Alfine, e-bike) & accessibility/configurability for disabled mobility to the masses are both things that had not occurred to me that present genuine innovation that would be more difficult with mechanical approaches.

I agree with all those points. Myself, I thought I would never have electronic shifting because I sort of like old ways. But due to hand and arm pain/weakness, I simply could not shift my SRAM mechanical 11 speed. Going to electronic made shifting possible. I love it. I've gotten some strength back and can shift my old shifters but wouldn't give up the electronic because it is that much easier to install, maintain, and use. One little push and I can move the RD across the entire cassette.

tomato coupe 07-01-22 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by base2 (Post 22560512)
Post 2: Avoided cable cost, adjustability in cold.

Post 4: Speed of shift. Touch of button. Grown on poster over time.

Post 8: Arthritis. To get hydro brake. (Bundled tech)

Post 10: To allow automatic systems.

Post 12: Has both, plans to go e-shift, again.

Post 13: Maintenance avoidance.

Post16: Maintenance, adjustment. Plans to keep.

Post 23: Trimming.

Post 30: Never anything else again.

Post 32: Easy install.

Post 35: Different modes. Sequential shifting.

Post 40: Shifting modes. Lever designation.

...& of course Good ol' post 26: Never missed a shift, reliable, & uniquely suited to competitive endeavors. No plans to go back indicated.

Did you read the thread?

Yes, I did. And only one of those posts supports your conclusion that the technology has to grow on you. The rest point out the advantages.

Camilo 07-01-22 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by DMC707 (Post 22560442)
Now that its moving into the 105 level -- i'd say its here to stay

Sram, keeping Shimano on its toes, has put electronic down to Rival, and it appears to be very popular, most likely because of the price point and functional near-equivalence to higher priced groups.

Camilo 07-01-22 01:31 PM

With the advent of super wide range 1X systems (I'm talking LOW gears, pie plate cassettes and capable rear derailleurs), one of the advantages of electronic shifting to the new rider is going away. I've long felt that a lot of (most?) new riders don't know how to, or care to know how to properly and effectively use the front crankset. I've thought and commented years ago that "wouldn't it be nice that some sort of automatic shifting of the entire system was possible, so the rider didn't have to understand when to shift from one front chainwheel to the otther". I'm serious, I know many riders who really don't "get" when or how to do front shifting. Electronic shifting can be put in automatic (aka "sequential") mode or even sold as that as the default. Poof, the mysteries of front shifting are gone. But like I said, with 1x systems getting very close to providing the low gears of common 2X or even 3x systems, that is less of an advantage. When my kids were young, I obtained and passed from first kid to second, a simple 1X8 kid sized MTB. It didn't really have low enough gearing for the hills around our house, but for bike path, family rides, it was perfect for a beginning rider learning how to shift.

Rolla 07-01-22 01:32 PM


Originally Posted by base2 (Post 22560368)
Think of this as an attempt at a sort of meta-analysis. An information seeking exercise. What critical observation or piece of information did I, a fallible, opinionated human with limited senses & life experience miss in my observation of the electronic shifting system experiment?

When people say "don't overthink it," this is what they're talking about. Try electronic shifting. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. A studied analysis won't change anything. When did we lose the ability to trust our own sensibilities?

Steve B. 07-01-22 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by GhostRider62 (Post 22560609)
I agree with all those points. Myself, I thought I would never have electronic shifting because I sort of like old ways. But due to hand and arm pain/weakness, I simply could not shift my SRAM mechanical 11 speed. .

I had similar issues with Shimano mt. bike trigger shifters, many decades of hand injuries left my thumbs very weak and I had issues with XT and SLX shifters. I swapped to an XT Di2 system and its wonderful. I think Di2 is even better on a mt. bike than a road bike (I have both) as you shift a lot more often on a mt. bike, so having easy and perfect shifts is more noticeable. As well I've done no maintenance. I just hope I never snap a rear derailer as that's expensive.

Camilo 07-01-22 01:35 PM


Originally Posted by Rolla (Post 22560712)
When people say "don't overthink it," this is what they're talking about. Try electronic shifting. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. A studied analysis won't change anything. When did we lose the ability to trust our own sensibilities?

I love science and engineering, I totally respect scientists and engineers, and am grateful for their knowledge, but sometimes I think there's too many scientists and engineers trying to shoe horn their skills into internet hobby forums.

Rolla 07-01-22 01:51 PM


Originally Posted by Camilo (Post 22560716)
I love science and engineering, I totally respect scientists and engineers, and am grateful for their knowledge, but sometimes I think there's too many scientists and engineers trying to shoe horn their skills into internet hobby forums.

Science and engineering are great. But this is more like, "I don't like the feel of electronic shifting, so please explain it to me until I do."
I just don't think every emotional response requires an in-depth analytical study to validate it.

Polaris OBark 07-02-22 12:10 AM

Hey hey, my my.
Di2 will never die.
There's more to these shifters
Than meets the eye
Hey hey, my my.

My my, hey hey
Di2 is here to stay
It's better to burn out
Than drain the battery.
My my, hey hey

Out with the mechanical
and into the electronic
You pay for this,
like never before
And once you've tried it
you can't go back
When you're out of the mechanical
and into Di2

nel e nel 07-02-22 04:24 AM


Originally Posted by Polaris OBark (Post 22558887)
I got it in 2014 because then, in order to get hydraulic shifting, I had to get it, as it was bundled when first released. I have zero regrets. I went from friction down-tube shifting (which I really liked) to Di2. I never owned a bike with mechanical "brifters." I do now (Campy on mine -- replaced the friction shifters, 105 on a couple of family bikes, etc), and I never really got used to the levers and find Di2 much more pleasant to use. The feedback is in the cadence, not making my hands hurt (this is hyperbole for me, but my wife has arthritic hands, so her new bike is going to have Di2).

The battery recharge is a non-issue. I let it run down intentionally when I first got it, just to see firsthand what would happen (stops shifting in the front first). I charge every 4 to 6 months, and haven't been caught out.

My only objection is vaguely philosophical: you shouldn't need to charge a battery to be able to ride a bike. But I got over it pretty quickly.

One could argue that your legs are batteries that need charging before every ride.

wolfchild 07-02-22 05:51 AM

I have absolutely no interest in electronic shifting.

bruce19 07-02-22 06:18 AM

Electronic shifting is sort of like disc brakes. Are they "better" than what went before? Probably. Are rim brakes and mechanical shifting a problem.....nope. Do I want to add a couple thousand dollars and some weight to the cost of a new bike. Probably not. I'm just fine with my 15 lb GURU Photon and it's Dura Ace 11-sp mechanical system and rim brakes.

Polaris OBark 07-02-22 08:22 AM


Originally Posted by wolfchild (Post 22561330)
I have absolutely no interest in electronic shifting.

Thanks for sharing. I will notify Shimano, SRAM and Campy forthwith!

Polaris OBark 07-02-22 08:26 AM


Originally Posted by nel e nel (Post 22561282)
One could argue that your legs are batteries that need charging before every ride.

Even when my Garmin's "body battery" estimate is very low (which it often is), I can still pedal the thing.

But the battery discharge worry on Di2 is not realistic. I don't even bother to check it more than once every month or two. Things just don't happen that fast. (My oldest kid has it, and has been plagued with some sort of random discharge problems that have a bad habit of appearing on race day. As annoyed as I am, I realize this is a very rare fluke.)

Sy Reene 07-02-22 09:07 AM

I think that a lot of the impetus for these kind of new tech discussions also stem from the new and inherent additional costs that go along with. There is no 12 speed Shimano mech shifting - remaining to be seen if 105 will come in 12s. So Di2 carries a built-in hefty price tag - by all accounts there are some pluses, but are they $1,000 worth of pluses? Same would go for disc brakes -- sure they work great, but they also cost more and weigh more. The choices remaining to have a high end framed bike built without being bundled with the newer tech (and price tags) are very diminished, so that there's now an tech inflation price tag that's unavoidable.

tomato coupe 07-02-22 01:02 PM


Originally Posted by wolfchild (Post 22561330)
I have absolutely no interest in electronic shifting.

I have no interest in lima beans.

spdntrxi 07-02-22 01:14 PM

anybody else think this is an odd title after how long Di2 has been around ?
  • Anyways to the op, maybe if you had small hands (like some petite women might). Di2 would come in handy.
  • For me personally I have some issue with my fingers and di2 helps me out there, so it's very welcome system for me.

Sy Reene 07-02-22 01:40 PM


Originally Posted by spdntrxi (Post 22561661)
anybody else think this is an odd title after how long Di2 has been around ?

True. A couple differences though to the past. It remains to be seen if there will continue any mechanical in the top 3 tier groups for Shimano while upping the speeds to the same level.

Different now because of this, is we've seemingly lost the option to just get an upgrade kit to Di2 if we decide we want to try and have some leftover money 1-2 years down the road from buying the bike. Prior to the CV-related supply chain crises, there were 11s Di2 upgrade kits you could get for about $1k, and AFAIK, you could install on eg. an otherwise equipped 105 mech bike. So at least there was the option to afford a decent 105 equipped bike, then spend another $1k and gain electronic shifting.

As an example, a Tarmac SL6 Sport can be bought for $3500, and used to be able to add Di2 shifting to bring to about $4500 or so. Now, lowest cost model equipped Tarmac with Di2 will run you $8300 if their website is current. Not all makers are this off though. Cervelo (via Excel) seems to offer a $5k low option, and Trek's Di2 Emonda is only $6k

spdntrxi 07-02-22 04:10 PM


Originally Posted by Sy Reene (Post 22561685)
True. A couple differences though to the past. It remains to be seen if there will continue any mechanical in the top 3 tier groups for Shimano while upping the speeds to the same level.

Different now because of this, is we've seemingly lost the option to just get an upgrade kit to Di2 if we decide we want to try and have some leftover money 1-2 years down the road from buying the bike. Prior to the CV-related supply chain crises, there were 11s Di2 upgrade kits you could get for about $1k, and AFAIK, you could install on eg. an otherwise equipped 105 mech bike. So at least there was the option to afford a decent 105 equipped bike, then spend another $1k and gain electronic shifting.

As an example, a Tarmac SL6 Sport can be bought for $3500, and used to be able to add Di2 shifting to bring to about $4500 or so. Now, lowest cost model equipped Tarmac with Di2 will run you $8300 if their website is current. Not all makers are this off though. Cervelo (via Excel) seems to offer a $5k low option, and Trek's Di2 Emonda is only $6k

dont blame it on Di2... everyone across the board has pretty much increase the price of their frames/bikes. New stuff always pays the premium, this is not a new concept.

Sy Reene 07-02-22 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by spdntrxi (Post 22561813)
dont blame it on Di2... everyone across the board has pretty much increase the price of their frames/bikes. New stuff always pays the premium, this is not a new concept.

It's both new and not new. 12s isn't new (Campy and SRAM have had for a while; 13s even). Di2 isn't obviously new. What's new is there's a larger barrier to entry and no upgrade path (barring complete swap of entire drivetrain) from mech to electronic shifting.

spdntrxi 07-02-22 06:00 PM


Originally Posted by Sy Reene (Post 22561842)
It's both new and not new. 12s isn't new (Campy and SRAM have had for a while; 13s even). Di2 isn't obviously new. What's new is there's a larger barrier to entry and no upgrade path (barring complete swap of entire drivetrain) from mech to electronic shifting.

it's new for Shimano.. and that's all that matters for Shimano.
I had etap11.. AXS was more expensive when it came out..
you really going to count EkAR.. which is 1X system.. you save money but not having an FD.

It's really hard to have an upgrade path from say 10 to 11, 11 to 12 and so. Who is doing it. SRAM didn't either. Going from etap11 to AXS I had to change everything. Atleast Shimano I could use my chainrings from 11 to 12.(non Shimano) and my freehub if I choose. Also on my TT bike the 9180 levers will work with 12 speed, I do wish 9170 road levers had the same cross compatibility.

I have no intention of every going back to mechanical gears

Camilo 07-03-22 12:11 AM


Originally Posted by spdntrxi (Post 22561661)
anybody else think this is an odd title after how long Di2 has been around ?
  • Anyways to the op, maybe if you had small hands (like some petite women might). Di2 would come in handy.
  • For me personally I have some issue with my fingers and di2 helps me out there, so it's very welcome system for me.

I refer you to post 32

Ogsarg 07-03-22 03:10 AM


Originally Posted by Polaris OBark (Post 22561434)
Even when my Garmin's "body battery" estimate is very low (which it often is), I can still pedal the thing.

But the battery discharge worry on Di2 is not realistic. I don't even bother to check it more than once every month or two. Things just don't happen that fast. (My oldest kid has it, and has been plagued with some sort of random discharge problems that have a bad habit of appearing on race day. As annoyed as I am, I realize this is a very rare fluke.)

I had that same thing happen on my bike. I would charge it completely and it would go out in less than 100 miles. I thought the battery was defective and was going to make a warranty claim. I read a post about the charger being important and saw that the ma rating of the charger was important. The one I was using met the spec but decided to try a different one and problem solved.

When working properly, worrying about the battery is just silly. I typically charge mine when I think it's been a month or two even if it doesn't need it. If by some chance it does go low, you get up to a thousand miles with the RD still working.

wvridgerider 07-03-22 07:51 AM

Just think, if there is another Carrington Event,I can still ride my bike that has mechanical shifting.

PeteHski 07-03-22 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by jackb (Post 22560595)
Whatever the so-called advantages of electronic shifting, the reason for it is two-fold. Americans love newness accompanied by convenience. I'm sure that electronic shifting is sure and efficient, but there are some whose goal is not to do something in the easiest and most efficient way. My bikes shift well enough. When they get out to tune I sometimes miss a shift. No bid deal. What if Shimano came out with voice activated shifting? Some cyclists would hail this as a major breakthrough. Now you don't even need to press a button. Just give a voice command like one does to that idiotic Alexa system. But the main reason we have all these technological developments is that companies want to make more and more money. One way to do this is make cyclists believe that they are on outdated equipment. Once you are convinced that you are not on the cutting edge of high tech and efficiency you'll be ready to spend thousands on a new bike. The industry is quite pleased.

As a human being, I like doing things manually. I like turning the lights on and off in my house. I like walking places. I like using my body in many ways. Of course I use modern conveniences like most other people, but I use them selectively. Some relieve me from hard, tedious work, but even then I like hard tedious work every now and then. If one likes electronic shifting, there you go. But for many it is not necessary at all and, in the long run, just costs more money. I'd like to see some rogue company produce and promote simple, basic bicycles at a reasonable cost. Four and five thousand dollars is simply too much to pay for a bike. Pedaling for fun is what most of us like about cycling, not pedaling for speed or to win something or to do something in the most efficient manner. But again, to each his own. Some people yearn to own a driverless car. Many of us do not.

So any further bicycle development beyond your personal expectations is a waste of time and there should be a fixed upper limit for their cost. Again in line with your personal expectations.

Note: Nobody is asking Shimano to make a voice activated gear shift. Why? Because it doesn't really make any sense.


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