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Any science nerd here work out the work equivalence formula for incline vs. flat ?

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Any science nerd here work out the work equivalence formula for incline vs. flat ?

Old 08-02-22, 08:23 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Translating to competent English, I think he's saying less than half of it is flat.
So it's hilly.

Some posters must think they're being paid by the word.
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Old 08-02-22, 08:24 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Translating to competent English, I think he's saying less than half of it is flat.
If it were only a language issue...
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Old 08-02-22, 08:56 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
So it's hilly.
When 95% of what someone writes is nonsense, itís easy to overlook the rare statement that isnít.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:55 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
When 95% of what someone writes is nonsense, itís easy to overlook the rare statement that isnít.

The whole premise of the question is pretty silly--how many ways are there to slice up a 20 minute ride?

I did a loop over two days last weekend of 156 miles with 8500 feet of climbing carrying about 20 pounds of stuff on my rear rack.. On the Saturday leg, I had a 14 mph headwind in my face for about 30 miles. On the Sunday return leg, 1000 feet of that climbing is in the first 5.7 miles, and I was still feeling the effort I needed the day before climbing into a headwind a bunch of times.. Suffice it to say that under those conditions, I found it more difficult to ride on hills than flat.
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Old 08-02-22, 11:03 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The whole premise of the question is pretty silly--how many ways are there to slice up a 20 minute ride?
I usually slice up a 20 minute ride as:

0-20min - warm-up
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Old 08-02-22, 01:17 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Related question for the team.
My chosen 20 min. loop is mostly either uphill or downhill, which I love.

For a given distance, which is harder for you?
A ride that is flat, or a ride that has a lot of up and down hills.
Or do you feel no difference?

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Old 08-02-22, 06:08 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
If it's a loop, it has exactly the same amounts of uphill and downhill. Try again.
Yea, that's not the point.
Maybe a picture will help you understand.
Are these all equally difficult to ride?
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Old 08-02-22, 06:10 PM
  #83  
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Which is harder for you? A ride that is flat, or a ride that has a lot of up and down hills?
LOL that people don't understand such a basic question.

Last edited by CheGiantForLife; 08-02-22 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 08-02-22, 06:16 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
LOL at the collective IQ that people don't understand such a basic question.
Pro tip: when it seems like everyone else is an ******* dumb, it's probably you, not them.
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Old 08-02-22, 08:10 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Which is harder for you? A ride that is flat, or a ride that has a lot of up and down hills?
LOL that people don't understand such a basic question.
I can't understand why someone would ask such a question about a twenty minute ride.
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Old 08-03-22, 05:16 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Which is harder for you? A ride that is flat, or a ride that has a lot of up and down hills?
LOL that people don't understand such a basic question.

Which part of "it depends" did you not understand?

How steep are the hills?
What do you mean by "harder"? I can push myself hard on a hill or take it easy. I can push myself hard on the flat or take it easy. If the hill is steep, I can't take the hill going as easy as I can on the flat.

Your problem is that you don't know enough to realize you're asking stupid questions. When you don't get the simplistic answer you want, you then proclaim the answer you expected is " basic.".

Last edited by livedarklions; 08-03-22 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 08-03-22, 05:25 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Yea, that's not the point.
Maybe a picture will help you understand.
Are these all equally difficult to ride?
You asked about hills vs. flat, but those are radically different wave patterns, none of which are flat.
You don't get that those wave patterns would be very different riding situations? Also, since there's no scale on the y and x axes, we have no idea what the grades are.
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Old 08-03-22, 07:44 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Yea, that's not the point.
Maybe a picture will help you understand.
Are these all equally difficult to ride?
They are not the same thing, but 'inherently harder' is not an answerable question. If your intent is to go and Time Trial that flat at your absolute best effort, that is one thing (and that is EXTREMELY difficult, by definition). If you go out and do an easy (Z2) ride - that is something else. If the ups are not too steep for your strength and gearing and you don't push yourself going up, that is not going to be hard. If you are on a single speed bike and the ups are steep then that is probably going to be hard no matter what you do short of walking up some hills.

How hard is this flat ride is purely a function of how hard you rode it (or maybe wind conditions in some extreme cases). Up and down - it depends.

dave

ps. The are that I ride is very rolling terrain. There are pretty much no long flats and you never go up or down for very long. I vacationed for a week in Naples, Fl. earlier this year and I took my bike. Total elevation gain on a 25 mile ride in the 10-20 feet range. It did not strike me as being either harder or easier.
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Old 08-03-22, 02:30 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
They are not the same thing, but 'inherently harder' is not an answerable question. If your intent is to go and Time Trial that flat at your absolute best effort, that is one thing (and that is EXTREMELY difficult, by definition). If you go out and do an easy (Z2) ride - that is something else. If the ups are not too steep for your strength and gearing and you don't push yourself going up, that is not going to be hard. If you are on a single speed bike and the ups are steep then that is probably going to be hard no matter what you do short of walking up some hills.

How hard is this flat ride is purely a function of how hard you rode it (or maybe wind conditions in some extreme cases). Up and down - it depends.

dave

ps. The are that I ride is very rolling terrain. There are pretty much no long flats and you never go up or down for very long. I vacationed for a week in Naples, Fl. earlier this year and I took my bike. Total elevation gain on a 25 mile ride in the 10-20 feet range. It did not strike me as being either harder or easier.

That's a really good explanation of something he's been told several times. I predict, unfortunately, that he still won't get it.

I also think if we're going to talk about hilly vs. flat, we need to keep in mind the overall effects of the descents--now there's a portion of the ride where it is difficult if not impossible to "push yourself".
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Old 08-13-22, 03:12 PM
  #90  
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Today, I rode 15 miles of flats. It was a joke compared to 3 minutes of hills.
It is easier to ride 50 miles of flat than 20 mins of constant hills.
Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable clearly does not own a bike.
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Old 08-13-22, 03:26 PM
  #91  
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Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable clearly does not own a bike.
Given that you started this thread asking what the comparison was (which implies you thought there was a valid comparison), and given the explanation in post #88, how did you arrive at that conclusion?
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Old 08-13-22, 03:39 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
It is easier to ride 50 miles of flat than 20 mins of constant hills.
You bet! 50 miles of flat at 200W takes me about 2.5 hours, whereas 20 minutes of constant hills at 200W takes me ... 20 minutes. Clearly, 2.5 hours at 200W is a lot easier than 20 minutes at 200W. Simpel phisiks.
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Old 08-13-22, 05:08 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Today, I rode 15 miles of flats. It was a joke compared to 3 minutes of hills.
It is easier to ride 50 miles of flat than 20 mins of constant hills.
Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable clearly does not own a bike.
It depends on how you ride both and the combination of your fitness and your gearing in some cases will matter a great deal.

Several years ago I rode a very hilly century (11K' of climbing) and my training where I live (constant up/down with no long flats or climbs or descents) did not prepare me well for 45+ minutes of constant/hard effort (or you could take the view that I rode the ups too hard). I had some serious cramping issues and was at around the 65-70 mile point when I realized that (1) I was in survival mode and (2) was not cramping on the flats (where I was doing kind of recovery riding at no more than 200W). So I just decided that I would not go up at any more than 200 watts. I did not exceed that (not much for long anyway) and I had no more cramps.

But we had passed the steepest of the climbs (above 12%). Had I encountered any of those grades from that point foward, it might have been a different story as 200W would have forced me down to a such a low cadence that the required pedal force might have created different issues for me. I honestly do not know and there are no long 12+% grades where I live to try out.

So it depends. The fitter you are and lower your gears, the wider the range of hills that you can 'ride like the flats'. And there does remain another variable - if occasional 'backing off a bunch' is a necessary part of your riding the flats, then long climbs will present a bigger challenge. Again - it depends.

For me I just ride the ups harder because that is what I do. I don't have to, but that is what I do (and what most do).

dave
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Old 08-14-22, 06:20 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
You bet! 50 miles of flat at 200W takes me about 2.5 hours, whereas 20 minutes of constant hills at 200W takes me ... 20 minutes. Clearly, 2.5 hours at 200W is a lot easier than 20 minutes at 200W. Simpel phisiks.
Let me know when you actually ride a bike for the first time.
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Old 08-14-22, 06:26 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Let me know when you actually ride a bike for the first time.
Yo dude, I was agreeing with you. Your logic and reason is unassailable.
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Old 08-16-22, 08:39 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
While I can't fault your analysis, I am wondering what major factors might influence the equivalency. So that sometimes it's 180 ft = 1 mile on the flat, and sometimes its 74 ft climbing = 1 mile on the flat, and sometimes something else. Obviously aerodynamics and body/bike weight count, but perhaps it's also the nature of the climbing too that plays a role.
Some guys suck at climbing...
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Old 08-17-22, 08:01 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Today, I rode 15 miles of flats. It was a joke compared to 3 minutes of hills.
It is easier to ride 50 miles of flat than 20 mins of constant hills.
Anyone who thinks these are remotely comparable clearly does not own a bike.

No, anyone who thinks the comparison is per mile doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I will often do the 50 miles of flats in combo with constant hills far longer than 20 minutes, so unlike you, I have an actual base for the comparison. Actually, you're using distance for flats and time for hills so you don't even understand the difference.

Tell me how long you take to ride the 50 miles on the flat and I'll tell you whether your efforts are comparable. Ride that 15 miles at 22 mph for example and get back to us on the comparison.
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Old 08-17-22, 08:16 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Let me know when you actually ride a bike for the first time.

You know people have been explaining to you why you're wrong about this for well over a year by now. SO let us know when you're smart enough to understand the explanation. You have a finite level of effort you can sustain regardless of the terrain--your max effort on hills cannot be larger than your max effort on the flats. The only limitation to the amount of effort you put into riding on the flat up to your maximum capacity is that which you impose yourself. The primary form of resistance you need to overcome on a hill is probably gravity, at high speeds on the flat, it is probably primarily air resistance (drag). You can make the same maximum effort on the bike on the flats that you can on the bike climbing a hill, you'll just go faster. Air resistance increases dramatically with speed. Obviously, you're incapable psychologically or you lack the skills to propel the bike that fast on the flat, and you have interpreted that to mean it's impossible to put that kind of effort into flat world bike riding. I just watched the woman's one hour mileage record being set--that's on an indoor track. She was in literally visible physical pain from the effort at the end of the hour

And I have to tell you, I'm pretty sure that every one of the people who have explained this to you have thousands of times more bike experience and knowledge than you ever will. Your Dunning-Kruger attitude is really funny.
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Old 08-17-22, 08:47 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
It depends on how you ride both and the combination of your fitness and your gearing in some cases will matter a great deal.

Several years ago I rode a very hilly century (11K' of climbing) and my training where I live (constant up/down with no long flats or climbs or descents) did not prepare me well for 45+ minutes of constant/hard effort (or you could take the view that I rode the ups too hard). I had some serious cramping issues and was at around the 65-70 mile point when I realized that (1) I was in survival mode and (2) was not cramping on the flats (where I was doing kind of recovery riding at no more than 200W). So I just decided that I would not go up at any more than 200 watts. I did not exceed that (not much for long anyway) and I had no more cramps.

But we had passed the steepest of the climbs (above 12%). Had I encountered any of those grades from that point foward, it might have been a different story as 200W would have forced me down to a such a low cadence that the required pedal force might have created different issues for me. I honestly do not know and there are no long 12+% grades where I live to try out.

So it depends. The fitter you are and lower your gears, the wider the range of hills that you can 'ride like the flats'. And there does remain another variable - if occasional 'backing off a bunch' is a necessary part of your riding the flats, then long climbs will present a bigger challenge. Again - it depends.

For me I just ride the ups harder because that is what I do. I don't have to, but that is what I do (and what most do).

dave
I think you're right that psychologically, a person may drive themselves to max out their effort on a hill, I find that happens to me especially on a long ride when I'm itching to get the damn thing over with and the hill comes late in the ride. I think there's also a number of factors that make the perceived effort on the hill seem much higher than on the flat. For one thing, on the flat you can coast for very short amounts of time while largely maintaining the speed and I find these little tiny "breaks" just make my muscles feel like they just reset in a way I can't feel on a hill. More importantly, I think it cannot be overemphasized how much more efficient your body is going to be at radiating excess heat and evaporating sweat at high speed than at climbing speed. I really became acutely aware of this riding a few hilly 100+ mile rides during the heat wave of the past several weeks--I'm sure I was riding the flats as hard as I was the hills, but because I wasn't a soggy, overheated, panting mess on the flats, it felt a lot easier than the climbs.

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Old 08-17-22, 09:33 AM
  #100  
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From my observation of riding with people who don't measure power, on a long ride when the objective is to simply ride for 4-5 hours at a moderate effort, people riding on feel will generally significantly up the power uphill. Weaker or heavier riders may not have a choice. Furthermore, some seem to take it too easy on the flat (in comparison to what they could do, looking at their uphill power), hills just force their hand.

Itís a reasonable strategy sometimes, too: I do it when trying to beat a time, or on a hilly triathlon, too - up the power uphill (trying to stay within FTP for the most part, not to burn matches which I'm going to need later) and lower it on the flat slightly to something more sustainable over the hours.

Anyway, there is no real way to equate the two short of using power or at least heart rate / RPE, because it is about the effort and it is entirely possible to go on a conservational pace chatting with your mates uphill.
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