Germany_chris

Like I say in all these threads..this doesn’t need to be an either or situation, it inly takes a couple of minutes to change pedals

rsbob 

Am thrilled that you went out on a limb, and it worked brilliantly. The difference can be astounding.

Being ancient, I went from flat pedals to toe clips with straps to real cycling shoes to go with the straps which had a channel in the shoe sole to better lock the shoe in place. That was pretty good compared to flats especially when climbing hills or sprinting out of the saddle. THEN I took the plunge into clipless pedals and cleats and YOWZA. So simple, so attached with float for the knees and the was it. I never looked back and doubt you will either. Enjoy putting the power down.

koala logs

Yes, but most of the pros don't pull despite using clipless pedals. In fact Simon, one of the GCN presenter who use to be pro did mention on one of the videos that Pros don't pull in their pedaling technique.

The charts show the legs have very poor efficiency in the upstroke compared to downstroke perhaps why pros don't pull. They're probably trying to maximize their energy reserves.


It's good if you're trying to lose more calories in a shorter time.

Not when you're trying to maximize energy reserves in your body like during a long ride or during a long race.

Also consider that Simon very rarely rides on flat pedals and it won't be surprising to find out he even hates them. For someone who actually likes flat pedals, might actually see even bigger differences in efficiency. Again, I'm not promoting flat pedals. The differences are without doubt due to technique not from the choice of pedals.

63rickert

OP is very correct that most riders like clipless immediately and it is a very good system.

There are other ways to skin a cat. I was a very late adopter, went clipless in 1988. Was racing CX weekly, it was silly to use toeclips as long as I did. Watching everyone else ride away after each remount finally made me get new pedals and shoes. I promptly moved from back marker to being in the race, even placing on good days. The other bikes got clipless soon after. It stayed that way until 2011.

Then I was given custody of the eponymous 1963 Rickert, equipped with 1963 Campagnolo 1037 pedals. From the first seconds of test ride it was obvious the big pedal platform was giving me control. Body English met the big pedal and everything worked. The bike went arrow straight with no effort. The ride was relaxing and comfortable, there was no going back to clipless. This was after 22 years of clipless exclusively.

There are good reasons few are fond of clips and straps. They were created when the population had smaller feet, they don't work as well for bigger feet. They were made for shoes with smooth leather soles, almost no one even owns those any longer. Softsole shoes create an impromptu and unpredictable cleat. The oversize clown shoes that have become normal won't work at all. Current production cycling shoes are even worse, the knobs and straps on top of shoe aren't going in there, then they get stuck.

About lifting the pedals. No one does that. The only time it happens is when climbing, and climbing at relatively low rpm. Think of the rider who does 90% or 99% of their miles on clipless. When that rider gets on a flat pedal bike they do not start lifting their foot off the pedal on the backstroke. Does not occur. What does occur, and what we should strive for, is lifting the weight of pedal shoe foot and leg. No power output, just lifting the weight of the leg. If not lifting the weight of the leg then the downward force on the other pedal is pushing the leg up. Most of the time the pedal going down is in fact forcing the other pedal up and is likely doing that against resistance as well as dead weight. The way to train for smoother pedaling is to be like 79pmooney and pedal fast and light on fixed wheel. The old guys who talked about pedaling circles - at least the ones I knew - were all track racers. Fixed gear racers. When someone says pedal circles they are still quoting those old track racers.

There is a simple piece of physics no one knows or understands. Most assume force equals mass times velocity. Wrong. Force equals one-half mass times velocity squared. The exponent makes all the difference. This means if you pedal faster (at same speed) there is much less weight on the pedal. Less push, less struggle, less jammed up muscle and lactic waste. On flat ground on a light fixed gear it often feels like the pedals are just floating, 20mph and the bike is moving down the road with no effort at all. When you have that float going is the time to think about pedaling mechanics.

GCN and all the graphs start from the assumption that pedaling at 80rpm and pedaling at 100rpm are the same thing. Not. There are endless confounding variables. To even begin to learn pedaling mechanics step one is to get in a group ride where everyone is pedaling smooth on a low light gear. If there is no such group, fixed gear. When your pedals start to float you are beginning.

Best club I ever belonged to the shop owner decreed the ride started with a warmup. Max gear for warmup was 42x16. If one of the fast guys made trouble in 42x16 they were shifted to 42x17. (Yes, our leader would pull alongside and move the gear lever himself.) If fast guys still made trouble in 42X17 they were obliged to use the 18 or the 19. It worked. We sent three to the pros in three years. And then everyone got 12 tooth cogs and wanted to use them.

Kapusta

The biggest advantage to clipless In my experience is the stiffness of the shoes, not the actual connection to the pedal.

After years of clipless use, I have largely embraced modern flat pedals and shoes for my road, gravel, commuting, and fat bike winter use (still clip in for my FS MTB). My only beef is that nobody is making flat pedal shoes with a really stiff shank under the mid-foot. I get that some flex there is good for MTB, but for road and gravel I will give up some “pedal feel” for the extra support. I have best luck with some old hiking shoes with a stiff shank and worn down tread.

Clipless less you deliver higher bursts of max power, but more power delivered is not the same as efficiency. I do not think clipless are more efficient.

prj71

Conversely I think this is the biggest benefit for mountain biking. Once I made the switch from flats to clipless my feet no longer slip off the pedals in the rough sections and hit me in the shin.

I haven't noticed a difference with the sitffer shoe in power delivery or efficiency though...only difference I have noticed is that the stiffer clipless shoe starts making my arches hurt on longer rides.

livedarklions

I don't race so I really don't know any way to be definitive about that, and I really would feel totally unqualified to suggest I know it makes no difference when virtually everyone who races seriously rides clipless. I think for everyone else, the differences appear to be small enough so that people really should just choose the type of pedals they're most comfortable/confident with.

I'm never going to be able to make a real comparison for myself because I have a congenital ankle problem and the one season I tried to ride with toe clips back in the late '70s messed my ankle up so badly that I have never had any interest in trying any kind of binding.

wolfchild

Yes I do ride fixed most of the time and I use pinned MTB platform pedals for most of my riding... When I do long distance rides I switch to toe clips and straps. I know it's risky to ride fixed gear without foot retention but I've been riding this way for a very long time.

Bogey Speedwell

I must confess when I ride less than 5 I won’t change out of my cargo shorts…..but everyone can relax I wear a full face motorcycle helmet so no one will recognize me.😂

Eric F 

Meanwhile, 5 of my 6 bikes have clipless pedals - road bike and MTBs (including a singlespeed MTB). The only one that doesn't is my '77 road bike with clips and straps. Not being clipped/strapped in feels disconnected. Most notably on a MTB.

Eric F 

Try different insoles. They have made a huge difference for me.

Yan 

Not really understanding your logic here. People drove cars without seatbelts for a long time. They realized it was risky and invented seatbelts. New technology advances life. That's how human ingenuity and civilization works. You know its risky but you don't take advantage of better technology because that's how you did it before??? Hello???

I also don't understand why you said you would never use clipless, when you ALREADY use toe clips and straps. Clipless is functionally identical to clips and straps, except without the crash ankle breaking part. I've ridding clips and straps, as well as clipless, for many years. Can you explain why you like the old cages more? Is it the shoes? You don't want to add a second pair of shoes to your shoe rack?

Paul Barnard

I started on flats. When everyone convinced me that clipless was the only way to go, I switched all of my bikes over. I have gravitated back to flats. Only one of my bikes now has clipless, and I can't tell a bit of difference in efficiency. Love hearing stories of how bicycling, or facets thereof, bring riders joy. Rock on OP.

Yan 

People say that clipless is irrelevant outside of a racing setting.

I agree with this completely. It makes no practical difference in a non-racing setting. We're talking about very small performance differences.

However I already have to wear shoes when cycling. I can't bicycle barefoot because I have delicate soles. It hurts and I have to wear shoes. So I might as well wear bike shoes. Why are there both neck ties and bow ties? Why do women wear both pants and skirts? Why is there more than one type of clothing? Why is there more than one type of thing in the universe? You want your mind blow? How about this: any clothes more complex than a sheet with a hole cut in it is functionally redundant. It's all just variations of the same thing with performance differences. Can you argue against that? No, you can't. It's true.

Kapusta

I do find that for my most technical, fast, and aggressive MTB riding, I still prefer to be connected to the pedal for basically the same reason as you.

But for road biking (or even most of what I do on my fat bike), falling off the pedals is not an issue, and there is a lot I like about a big, wide, flat pedal. But the softer flat shoes can sometimes make my feet ache after a while. That's why I use the hiking shoes I mentioned earlier on the road bike. On the fat bike (and the FS when I go with flats) I prefer the extra grip of the flat-specific shoes. Of course in the winter I am wearing huge boots.

Chuck M 

Looks like there is a pretty good discount on them online. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...-shoe/p/25341/

Bogey Speedwell

yeah saw that, those are a bit different, they have a different sku number. But honestly the Bike shop probably would have purchased them prior to a close out. I was actually expecting to pay more, but hat to get fit someplace and was glad to support them especially and helpful as they were. They didn’t have a bunch in my size but they had this one and it’s what I ended up with.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...angevisibility

Chuck M 

It looks like your shoes are possibly a newer model. They look better than the ones I linked also.

Bogey Speedwell

Yeah those for 60.00 were only size 36 only

alcjphil

Ok. I have been through as many different pedal systems as anyone. Toe clips? check. Toe clips with cleats? ditto. The problem with toe clips and cleats is that to maintain good foot retention is that the straps have to be tight which can be uncomfortable during a long ride. Clipless systems changed all that. You didn't have very tight straps over your shoes that held your feet in place any more for hours on end. Shoes could be designed to cradle the whole top your feet while still keeping you just as much as touch with your pedals. Very tight toe straps which are needed for high performance cycling are now pretty much confined to the velodrome. I have gone through many clipless systems. Who here has heard of Time's TWT clipless system? I used them for a couple of years. The shoes were not quite stiff enough and the pedals wore out. How about BEBOP pedals? Great pedals, But the cleats were expensive and didn't stand up to regular road riding even though they were designed for off road riding. So far, the Look 3 bolt retention setup seems to be the best choice for road pedals and the Shimano 2 bolt setup seems to be best for almost anything else

frogman

He contributed a valid comment. What do you deem it a worthless contribution ?

Kapusta

To many discussions around clipless confuse efficiency with power output. These are not the same thing.

I am not convinced clipless is more efficient. However, they do allow more power to be delivered in peak bursts. This is why they are critical for road racing.

_ForceD_

Certainly (if) we mortal cyclists pull up at all, that effort is diminished by the action of pushing down on the other pedal. So, WRT the power pedals, I agree they may be proving that…the fact that the pushing down is negating the pulling up. But really the power meter isn’t seeing the pulling up because the pushing down is negating it, overpowering it. So, if the sprinters in the pro peloton are pulling up harder, they are certainly pushing down much harder. And so their stronger pulling up is also negated by their stronger pushing down. My point is, no matter how hard you push down, and pull up…the pulling up action seems to be commensurate to that individual’s pushing down. So even if it’s just a little bit, the pulling up contributes to the revolution of the crank as opposed to flat pedals contributing none.

But…as far as “pushing down” and “pulling up”…I’ve read in several articles that whether you’re using clipless, or clips/straps, that you should concentrate on pedaling in circles…applying pressure to 360° of the pedal stroke, and not up and down (or in squares).

Dan

prj71

Yeah...If you wear a size 4 shoe.

raylinds

I rode seriously and used clipless for years. It took a while to get used to them, but I did. After not riding for over ten years, I am getting back into it and am starting with flats. After gaining weight and ready to turn 65 I am riding for enjoyment and fitness and not concerned with speed or efficiency. I would not be surprised, though if I went clipless at some point. Right now it is all about time in the saddle and keeping motivated to increase distance.

It's funny- I always felt a little vulnerable being attached to the pedal, but flats don't feel as efficient, even though I don't think there is really much, if any difference in my riding situation. I think both are strictly psychological- at least in my case.