OBoile

This is the bike I ride:
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ca/defy-advanced-2-2017

By far, the worst component on it is the engine.

That being said, I'll probably buy a new bike with electronic shifting in the next year or two. I don't need it and it won't make my significantly faster. But I want it and I'll get good use out of it so why not? But, I agree, if a salesman was pushing a bike like that when I was first starting out and not sure how committed I'd be, that would be wrong.

tomato coupe

Hunt, Zipp, ENVE, BlackInc, Princeton, Reynolds, HED, Fulcrum, Campy still make rim brake wheels. I'm about to order a new set -- there are plenty of options out there.

Eric F 

Enve? Hmmm...I looked and didn't see rim brake options. Maybe I missed it.

PeteHski

I thought Claris was literally their entry level group.

cyccommute 

Build your own. Not cheap but you get what you want. Of the 12 bikes in my garage and 5 bikes that reside at my daughter’s house, 2.5 bikes have wheels that weren’t built by me. I also have 4 more wheel sets that were built by me hanging in my garage. OEM and aftermarket wheel just don’t have the qualities I want so I’ve built my own since 1986.

Koyote

There is no way to distinguish between needs and wants. Which is why people who study such things for a living (i.e., economists) speak and theorize about demands or desires. And the best measure of a person's desires are the things that they choose to purchase, regardless of whether you happen to approve. We all have different priorities and budgets.

​​​​​​The key is in the second clause: you choose not to spend more. I mean, shoot, I can afford a Ferrari, or actually quite a few of them, in the sense that I have enough money to buy them. That's meaningless. We all make our choices. And again, our choices may not make sense to other observers, since they are not inside our heads.

Just some food for thought. Not trying to start an argument, since the above is indisputable.

livedarklions

I think there's some common usage you're talking past. I understood the post to be using the words "wants" and "needs" to distinguish between those things that it might be nicer to have on your bicycle vs. those things that are needed to make bicycle riding enjoyable and/or practical enough to actually do.

This is why I'm getting so hung up on the phrase "entry level", it certainly implies a minimal standard for participating in the activity. "If you want to ride, you'll need $500 shoes" is the kind of thing I thought of when I read the post you commented on.

I guess if I'm putting the issue into economist terms, I think what Jughed and I are concerned with is sales talk creating an appearance of a higher barrier to entry than actually exists.

genejockey 

Well, you know they say 'Time is money', so maybe that IS the biggest waste of money in cycling?

genejockey 

Yeah, but that's wide of the point, which is that it's getting harder to find a pre-built high quality rim brake wheelset.

Koyote

That's still subjective (as can be seen on countless threads here in GC) and hence a meaningless distinction. I mean, just think about your language choices: "those things that are needed to make bicycle riding enjoyable" ARE "those things that it might be nicer to have on your bicycle." And either of them are personal decisions or judgments, not universal truths.

PS: when I described this as the way economists think and talk about 'needs' and 'wants,' I was not trying to suggest that they (we) see it differently than laypersons; I was suggesting that this is how the subject is treated by people who have thought very carefully, over a period of about 100 years (from before Adam Smith up through Alfred Marshall), about the issue.

Jeff Neese

There's also Modern Bike, as well as a few others. You must be defining "high quality" different than me. I find plenty of wheel choices out there.

https://www.modernbike.com/700c-wheel-sets

Lombard

You are obviously looking in the wrong places:

https://novemberbicycles.com/collections/shop-wheels

https://bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/Road/Pro-Racing/

https://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/210.htm

Jughed

Not that I am concerned. I'm just trying to put a definition of sorts on what could be a waste of money in cycling. I don't consider want's a waste of money...

Lombard

What is it that belongs to the want?

genejockey 

The apostrophe - combining the worst characteristics of a catastrophe and the Apocalypse

badger1

Indeed!

cyccommute 

Not really. There are a whole bunch of wheels for which you can’t really buy any quality pre-built wheels like 27”, Schwinn sizes, 26” mountain bike, etc. Either curse the darkness or light a candle.

tomato coupe

None of the prior complaints about availability specified the wheels had to be pre-built, only that they had to be "decent", "quality", or "high quality." Regardless, in addition to the many custom builders that can build a set of rim brake wheels, there are still plenty of pre-built wheels available.

genejockey 

*sigh*

tomato coupe

The last time I looked at their website, they offered SES 3.4 Legacy wheels in rim or disc. And, some wheel builders still build rim brake wheels using Enve rims.

Jughed

Lookie heere, I are an engineer- not a speller.

seypat

According to the Shimano website, Claris is their entry level group. If we go to the Trek website and find their cheapest dropbar roadie with Claris,(unless I am mistaken) it's this Claris equipped Domane that Trek says is an awesome pick for your first road bike. I know that a savvy shopper that's not new to bikes might find some better deals. But for newbie Joe Shmo walking in the LBS door, this appears to be the typical baseline entry point to become a new roadie. $1200.00 bucks + the accessories.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/produ...ris-r2000.html

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...ode=blue_black

livedarklions

Wait, are all subjective distinctions meaningless? That's a pretty radical view, guess we can pretty much stop talking about human values because they are all meaningless, huh?
​​​​​​
Well, you may have been thinking about this for 100 years, but you're doing a rather superficial analysis here and you distorted what I actually said. The distinction I made was "enjoyable enough to actually do" vs. "nicer". And I made it very clear I was referring to barriers to entry. We're obviously talking about a leisure activity here (for the most part), so treating" needs" as somehow bearing no relationship to wants is obviously silly. If I want to play baseball, I need the use of several pieces of equipment, some real estate to play on, and some number of other people to play on my team and in opposition. Not being able to get any of those is a barrier to entry to baseball playing. If you want to ride a bicycle, you definitely need the use of a bike that can be ridden. If you want to deny that much of bicycle marketing and sales is dedicated to persuading us to define that minimum need to include higher end bikes, components and accessories, knock yourself out, but understand that all I'm saying is that carrying that too far actually can dissuade some people from taking up the activity.


"Need" is always conditional on a want, btw, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Even "I need x to survive" involves a subjective desire to keep on existing. But such preferences are meaningless according to you. Personally, I think they're rather basic to our species.

Camilo

So does Boyd, both aluminum and CF. For easy custom in any price point, prowheelbuilder.com has almost anything you want, is easy to use, and the prices are very comparable to ready-made wheels.

cyccommute 

Talk about wastes (of electrons). If you think there is a market, why not be an entrepreneur and start a business selling only rim brake wheels. I bet you could a million bucks (out of a $2 million investment).

As an owner of many bikes that are way out of date, I’ve figured out many work arounds to keep my fleet running. Whether that’s making my own wheels for my 26” mountain bikes…yes, several…or securing 9 speed shifters for triple cranksets or even getting hold of triple cranks in the first place, I have learned to deal with it rather than curse people for not bowing to my wishes.