Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

Old 11-04-22, 08:41 PM
  #426  
rsbob 
😵‍💫
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 3,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 2,671 Times in 1,537 Posts
Originally Posted by zhoushenglin View Post
Simply lazy.....

__________________
ďNo regertsĒ 🚴🏾‍♂️. Hanlon's razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Road and Mountain


rsbob is offline  
Old 11-08-22, 03:32 PM
  #427  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,820

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2590 Post(s)
Liked 2,290 Times in 1,294 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
What Iím telling you is that you donít know the difference between the two general types of ebikes. There is one type that you absolutely must pedal to make it move. Thatís not like a motorcycle.
Correct, it has a far more complicated throttle.
Kapusta is online now  
Likes For Kapusta:
Old 11-08-22, 05:01 PM
  #428  
adlai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 19 Posts
The real reason? Because mountain and hybrid bikes suck. But they're the most popular bikes. But the big tires and suspension and flat handlebars and the crappy gel seat actually isn't much fun to actually ride. But they're the default first choice.

Road bikes look uncomfortable but they're much better. You get much more distance per pedal output, and the drop bars distribute weight more evenly. But everyone thinks that you need an upright position and oodles of gel for an everyday bike.

But if you electrify the crappy mountain or hybrid bike it changes things. Suddenly it is more like a road bike. But you could have just gotten a road bike in the first place.
adlai is offline  
Likes For adlai:
Old 11-08-22, 05:14 PM
  #429  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 36,005
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16546 Post(s)
Liked 11,476 Times in 5,544 Posts
Originally Posted by adlai View Post
The real reason? Because mountain and hybrid bikes suck. But they're the most popular bikes. But the big tires and suspension and flat handlebars and the crappy gel seat actually isn't much fun to actually ride. But they're the default first choice.

Road bikes look uncomfortable but they're much better. You get much more distance per pedal output, and the drop bars distribute weight more evenly. But everyone thinks that you need an upright position and oodles of gel for an everyday bike.

But if you electrify the crappy mountain or hybrid bike it changes things. Suddenly it is more like a road bike. But you could have just gotten a road bike in the first place.
Cool story, bro.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 11-08-22, 06:40 PM
  #430  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 21,337
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5728 Post(s)
Liked 5,493 Times in 2,814 Posts
Originally Posted by greatbasin View Post
Persecution is part of your social status as a cyclist.
Road cyclists, as you say, wouldn't deign to interact with ebike riders.
Would you try to claim fixie riders don't have a social status among cyclists?
Oh, but "MUP riders", those are the lowest caste anyway, so if they have a beef with eBikes, what should the elite cyclists care about that?
Good grief.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 11-09-22, 01:34 AM
  #431  
URCinelliIsFake
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 31

Bikes: '88 Colnago Carbon Volo, '89 Colnago SLX Spiral Conic, '91 Colnago Master Olympic, '94 Colnago BiTitan, '99 Colnago Titanio, '89 Cinelli Su Misura MTB, '90 Cinelli Su Misura MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Lowest common denominator

You never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator, and e-bikes are lowest common denominator.
URCinelliIsFake is offline  
Likes For URCinelliIsFake:
Old 11-09-22, 06:57 AM
  #432  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,423

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7596 Post(s)
Liked 7,966 Times in 4,471 Posts
Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
My emphasis added above.

Excessive speed is not exclusive to E Bikes, but they're the much, much larger part of the problem of excessive speed on bike and MUP trails. What used to be a rare or sporadic issue is becoming a common problem. Very, very few casual riders go 15-20mph, those speeds are generally limited to racer wannabees and are fairly rare (at least where I live). But anyone on an ebike can go 15-20 mph and those speeds are getting to be very common and it's a bad development, imho.

I absolutely support PEDAL ASSIST ebikes regulated to less than, say, 12 mph on non-motorized MUPs. Or faster ebikes or e-motorcycles (which i consider to be ebikes with a throttle) on the streets. Totaly support those things.

But this phenomenon is un- or poorly regulated and getting waaaay beyond that. To me a fast pedal assist ebike is not a good mix with pedestrians or pedal bikes on non-motorized MUP. A throttle ebike is a motorized vehicle and should be regulated as such.

It's the wild west regarding ebikes and causing me to move from benign acceptance and support of the concept to increasing dislike.

I'm always struck in these conversations about how differently people view MUPs. The ones I ride on can safely accommodate 20+ mph speeds (I pedal that fast a lot). I occasionally see people riding like inconsiderate jerks, but generally they are far better behaved than people on the roads. And don't call.me a muppet or whatever, I ride several thousands of miles per year on roads. I see some roads I'd describe as the wild west, but no MUPs. That said, there's ones I won't ride on because they're really not designed for fast riding.
livedarklions is online now  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 11-09-22, 11:14 AM
  #433  
rsbob 
😵‍💫
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 3,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 2,671 Times in 1,537 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm always struck in these conversations about how differently people view MUPs. The ones I ride on can safely accommodate 20+ mph speeds (I pedal that fast a lot). I occasionally see people riding like inconsiderate jerks, but generally they are far better behaved than people on the roads. And don't call.me a muppet or whatever, I ride several thousands of miles per year on roads. I see some roads I'd describe as the wild west, but no MUPs. That said, there's ones I won't ride on because they're really not designed for fast riding.
RE: how differently people see MUPs, I believe it is a function of being myopic. They only have experience with what they know and arenít willing to widen their perspective

I also find it interesting how people may just read OP post and then skip all the excellent arguments for or against which may show their is a huge gray area, and then matter of factly say the answer is black or white. Period. Canít fix lazy or highly opinionated.
__________________
ďNo regertsĒ 🚴🏾‍♂️. Hanlon's razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Road and Mountain


rsbob is offline  
Old 11-09-22, 11:46 AM
  #434  
indyfabz
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 36,005
Mentioned: 204 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16546 Post(s)
Liked 11,476 Times in 5,544 Posts
Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
RE: how differently people see MUPs, I believe it is a function of being myopic. They only have experience with what they know and arenít willing to widen their perspective
+1. I was going to say that but was too lazy to write the post.

MUP conditions can even be markedly different on different days and at different times. On a nice Saturday afternoon, one MUP in and around Philly can be like I-95 at rush hour. On a Monday morning at 6:00 a.m. you will likely have the trail all (or nearly all) to yourself for multi-mile stretches. And that does not even get into long distance trails that are mostly rural, such as the GAP and the Mickelson.
indyfabz is offline  
Likes For indyfabz:
Old 11-09-22, 12:48 PM
  #435  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,423

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7596 Post(s)
Liked 7,966 Times in 4,471 Posts
Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
RE: how differently people see MUPs, I believe it is a function of being myopic. They only have experience with what they know and arenít willing to widen their perspective

I also find it interesting how people may just read OP post and then skip all the excellent arguments for or against which may show their is a huge gray area, and then matter of factly say the answer is black or white. Period. Canít fix lazy or highly opinionated.

Getting back to that, I think my perspective that ebikes really aren't a problem on paths may stem from the fact that I avoid paths where I can't ride fast. On a relatively straight, flat and well-paved rail trail, you almost have to try to be nasty to other people on the path. Even at high speed, you can see them from far enough to keep out of each other's way. To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen someone on an ebike posing any real problem on a rail trail. I have seen some hotshot wannabees do all kinds of close-passing and the like, sometimes of children, but fortunately, I only see that maybe 1-2 times per year, and it really stands out.

I had a really funny near miss last weekend when a woman with a huge leaf blower was working on the path. I slowed down to get around her and tried as best I could to announce my presence over the sound of the damn machine. I was passing behind her back, going pretty slow when I suddenly realized the machine was electric and there was a cord right in my path. She was emerged from a fairly wooded area, so it didn't even occur to me that there could be an outlet anywhere near her. I stopped with maybe about 2 inches to spare, both of us with really wide eyes at what almost happened. I honestly don't have any idea what she said to me, leaf blowers are really, really loud.
livedarklions is online now  
Old 11-09-22, 03:26 PM
  #436  
kayakindude
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New England
Posts: 403

Bikes: 1987 Cannondale SR600/BioPace, 1991 Cannondale Road Tandem,1994 Giant Iguana MB, 2009 Airnimal Chameleon, 2016 Dahon Vybe C7A

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by zhoushenglin View Post
Simply lazy.....
simply awesome

I have folders, tandems (one with assist), road bikes, and now electric Rad fat bikes. I enjoy each and every style and each one pedals. One is not better than the other for riding, the difference is how and where you use them. Ride responsibly and what you ride matters not. Try riding a 4 inch fat bike at level 1 PAS for 25 miles and then explain how it is lazy. My legs were hurting more from that 1st ride than much longer rides on the roadsters.
kayakindude is offline  
Likes For kayakindude:
Old 11-09-22, 09:02 PM
  #437  
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,990
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 791 Post(s)
Liked 738 Times in 472 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm always struck in these conversations about how differently people view MUPs. The ones I ride on can safely accommodate 20+ mph speeds (I pedal that fast a lot). I occasionally see people riding like inconsiderate jerks, but generally they are far better behaved than people on the roads. And don't call.me a muppet or whatever, I ride several thousands of miles per year on roads. I see some roads I'd describe as the wild west, but no MUPs. That said, there's ones I won't ride on because they're really not designed for fast riding.
I could have been more nuanced in my statement. I also have ridden faster than 15mph on MUPs (maybe 20, but I'm pretty slow). But that's only in appropriate places - where there's no other riders and/or very good sight lines and quiet enough for verbal communication when passing if need-be. What bothers me - and probably you - is when a more well used MUP has unreasonably fast riders on it. It happens sometimes with racer wannabees who should be on the road, but fast pedal riders like that are fairly uncommon on MUPs. But it's becoming more and more common by casual e-bike riders who can so easily too fast. Face it, the vast majority of MUP, casual, recreational bike riders go pretty slow, but not ebikes. It's just becoming more of an issue. FWIW, I only use MUPs when I have to and/or when they're pretty much clear of other users, riders, families, walkers, etc. I'm generally on the roads, gravel paths or MTB trails as appropriate.
Camilo is offline  
Old 11-10-22, 05:40 AM
  #438  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,423

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7596 Post(s)
Liked 7,966 Times in 4,471 Posts
Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
I could have been more nuanced in my statement. I also have ridden faster than 15mph on MUPs (maybe 20, but I'm pretty slow). But that's only in appropriate places - where there's no other riders and/or very good sight lines and quiet enough for verbal communication when passing if need-be. What bothers me - and probably you - is when a more well used MUP has unreasonably fast riders on it. It happens sometimes with racer wannabees who should be on the road, but fast pedal riders like that are fairly uncommon on MUPs. But it's becoming more and more common by casual e-bike riders who can so easily too fast. Face it, the vast majority of MUP, casual, recreational bike riders go pretty slow, but not ebikes. It's just becoming more of an issue. FWIW, I only use MUPs when I have to and/or when they're pretty much clear of other users, riders, families, walkers, etc. I'm generally on the roads, gravel paths or MTB trails as appropriate.
No, I really don't see ebike riders being unreasonably fast on the crowded bits. I also see a lot of older people riding ebikes at 15 mph or less.

I see a lot of assertion about these really fast inconsiderate unskilled ebike riders for a few years now, but I'm not seeing that actually happening.
livedarklions is online now  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 11-10-22, 09:28 AM
  #439  
prj71
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,205
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2673 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 628 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
No, I really don't see ebike riders being unreasonably fast on the crowded bits. I also see a lot of older people riding ebikes at 15 mph or less.

I see a lot of assertion about these really fast inconsiderate unskilled ebike riders for a few years now, but I'm not seeing that actually happening.
I saw it happening for the first time this year in a bunch of places I went.

People with low bike skill and low motivation to actually pedal and and physically exert themselves make up the largest users of e-bikes. And the scary thing is...It's mostly young people in their 20's, 30's 40s. Not the olds and physically handicapped. Basically people that would not have otherwise purchased a bike if they had to pedal without assistance.

Last edited by prj71; 11-10-22 at 09:32 AM.
prj71 is offline  
Likes For prj71:
Old 11-10-22, 10:26 AM
  #440  
rsbob 
😵‍💫
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 3,726
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 2,671 Times in 1,537 Posts
Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
I saw it happening for the first time this year in a bunch of places I went.

People with low bike skill and low motivation to actually pedal and and physically exert themselves make up the largest users of e-bikes. And the scary thing is...It's mostly young people in their 20's, 30's 40s. Not the olds and physically handicapped. Basically people that would not have otherwise purchased a bike if they had to pedal without assistance.
I see many buyers of e-bikes as having a low level of fitness, and those bikes allow them to get out and rides as if they did.
__________________
ďNo regertsĒ 🚴🏾‍♂️. Hanlon's razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Road and Mountain


rsbob is offline  
Old 11-10-22, 11:30 AM
  #441  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,423

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7596 Post(s)
Liked 7,966 Times in 4,471 Posts
Originally Posted by prj71 View Post

People with low bike skill and low motivation to actually pedal and and physically exert themselves make up the largest users of e-bikes. And the scary thing is...It's mostly young people in their 20's, 30's 40s. Not the olds and physically handicapped. Basically people that would not have otherwise purchased a bike if they had to pedal without assistance.

This is pure garbage speculation on your part. Now you're just making up stuff about the skill and motivation of the "largest users of e-bikes" based on nothing other than your personal prejudices. You that good at reading minds, administering handling skills tests and doing physicals that you can support that assertion?

Again, I keep reading people making the mismatch between speed and skill assertion, I just don't see it happening in real life. I don't think learning to handle the bike even into the mid-20 mph range is that difficult. I think the e-bike riders I've seen are basically about the same as fast pedalfers.

And frankly, if it gets them out of their car, I really don't care whether they'd otherwise be buying a bike.
livedarklions is online now  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 11-10-22, 04:31 PM
  #442  
kayakindude
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New England
Posts: 403

Bikes: 1987 Cannondale SR600/BioPace, 1991 Cannondale Road Tandem,1994 Giant Iguana MB, 2009 Airnimal Chameleon, 2016 Dahon Vybe C7A

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 52 Posts
I have 20 and 24 inch folders, three tandems (one electric assist, another just a single speed),
two road bikes and now just added this beast


Each and every one of them is a blast to ride on and the fat bike definitely works the legs at PAS 1. Whether analog or electric they can all ride at similar speeds, just a matter of duration. Any of these could be ridden irresponsibly at a high speed on a bike path, but that's on the operator.

All I can say oh my the beast is fun to ride across different surfaces!
kayakindude is offline  
Likes For kayakindude:
Old 11-11-22, 10:39 AM
  #443  
prj71
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,205
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2673 Post(s)
Liked 959 Times in 628 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This is pure garbage speculation on your part. Now you're just making up stuff about the skill and motivation of the "largest users of e-bikes" based on nothing other than your personal prejudices. You that good at reading minds, administering handling skills tests and doing physicals that you can support that assertion?
Making stuff up?!!! Oh hell no!!!

Saw it with my own two eyes up close and personal on rail trails and paved bike trails this summer. When someone is weaving all over the trail when you are coming up behind them, or cutting the corners wide when coming at you almost causing a collision...Definitely speaks volumes about their bike handling skills and awareness.

Physicals? C'mon be real. The majority of 20-40 somethings are in fine physical condition to pedal. Are there outliers? Sure. That's not the majority though.
prj71 is offline  
Old 11-11-22, 11:03 AM
  #444  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,423

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7596 Post(s)
Liked 7,966 Times in 4,471 Posts
Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Making stuff up?!!! Oh hell no!!!

Saw it with my own two eyes up close and personal on rail trails and paved bike trails this summer. When someone is weaving all over the trail when you are coming up behind them, or cutting the corners wide when coming at you almost causing a collision...Definitely speaks volumes about their bike handling skills and awareness.

Physicals? C'mon be real. The majority of 20-40 somethings are in fine physical condition to pedal. Are there outliers? Sure. That's not the majority though.
Here's what you said:

"People with low bike skill and low motivation to actually pedal and and physically exert themselves make up the largest users of e-bikes. "

So your own personal observations are sufficient to determine the "largest users of e-bikes"? No, you definitely made that factoid up out of whole cloth.


You also described this group as "Basically people that would not have otherwise purchased a bike if they had to pedal without assistance." That's completely speculation stated as fact on your part..


I don't doubt you might have seen a couple of unskilled e-bike riders, I didn't say they don't exist. I haven't seen them despite riding a lot of miles in some very crowded situations, so I think they're the exceptional cases, not the all-pervasive threat people are trying to assert here.
livedarklions is online now  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 11-12-22, 08:10 PM
  #445  
rossiny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 735

Bikes: Trek 970, Bianchi Volpe,Casati

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 326 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 70 Posts
Good point

Originally Posted by SimicRecluse View Post
So many strong opinions. I think e bikes are great. you still have to cycle and get exercise out of it. The greater problem is that there is little to no infrastructure for cycling, ebikes or otherwise, esp in the U.S. when they could be a complete replacement for cars in urban settings. Just think, no gas emissions, compact form, fast and easy way to get around for $1500 as opposed to spending $15000+ on a car, cycling lanes for the people that just want to pedal. The future is electric, man.
Yes the future is electric if they are on the road as commuters. I still think they should not be allowed on trails , I mean I thought the whole reason a biker goes on the trails is to not have to deal with motorized vehicles. I just saw sombody come in to my local bar with a "E-bike " after loosing their license to DUI. It looked like a Harley, tires were huge . They jump on it and go down the road easily was over 25mph. So we are saying your allowing this on a trail ?? Can you imagine your kid on a trail with this Electric Motorcycle?? Let's face it , how are they "assist", when you could never pedal this thing if the battery cuts out??
I'm all for E-bikes if they reduce the traffic from cars. In the USA, I don't see that happening. I could be wrong..
rossiny is offline  
Likes For rossiny:
Old 11-12-22, 08:23 PM
  #446  
rossiny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 735

Bikes: Trek 970, Bianchi Volpe,Casati

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 326 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 70 Posts
Runs like a deer.

All this talk about motion ,. Its anazing most other species of animals can migrate or hunt within a territory they can cover.Monarchs, humming birds, geese, wild horses, deer, Elk, Moose, etc, etc. Can cover vast amounts of territory. The human species has a bit of a problem lately , we need cars, jets, , . I guess if we has gone to E-bikes only that wouldn't be such a bad thing. Your actually moving your body without another 4000 pounds of metal and plastic, spewing out pollution. My question is what ever happened to the gas ⛽️ shortage , and pollution? Have those problems evaporated ??🤥 The only discussions I here now are political about whether global warming is real or not ?? 🤓

Last edited by rossiny; 11-24-22 at 12:20 AM.
rossiny is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.