Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

Old 09-11-22, 10:36 AM
  #151  
KPREN
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Wadsworth, Ohio
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2008 S Works Stumpjumper FSR Carbon, 2016 E Fat Titanium Bike Custom built by me.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 107 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Speak for yourself. I can spot an e-road bike quickly, whether it's standing still or passing by. One or more of the following is a "tell":
  • massive down tube
  • beefy bottom bracket
  • fat rear hub
So you can spot an E road bike that will only put out 445 watts at 28 mph?
KPREN is offline  
Old 09-11-22, 10:39 AM
  #152  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,036

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1579 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times in 776 Posts
Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
You are trying to compare a pro road bike to an e bike and there may more than double the watts at the same speed.
A pro bike is comparable to a high-end e-road bike, minus the motor. These e-bikes are not motorized beach cruisers. Here is an example e-road bike, ridden by a few people in my club:



There is very little functional difference between a "pro road bike" and this type of e-road bike.

The club riders on these e-bikes often do the lead out in sprints, topping out at 28 mph. Coming around them at that speed takes in excess of 450 Watts.

You may protest that certain e-cruiser bikes require more watts to go 28 mph? Granted.

I'm not the one who made this unqualified, broad statement:

Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
It takes about 750 watts to go 28 mph, 3,000 watts to go 40 mph and 7,500 watts to go 50 mph so when I read these negative comments about speeds, I have never witnessed in 20k miles of e biking, I have a big BS meter going.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat

terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 09-11-22, 10:46 AM
  #153  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,036

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1579 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times in 776 Posts
Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
So you can spot an E road bike that will only put out 445 watts at 28 mph?
To clarify:

1. I can spot a e-road bike by looking at it
2. I can tell by its speed roughly how much power it plus its rider is producing

Why? Because I ride with them, and I have a power meter.

Do I know that this or that e-bike is somehow limited to 445 watts? Of course not, what an odd question.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat

terrymorse is offline  
Old 09-11-22, 10:56 AM
  #154  
KPREN
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Wadsworth, Ohio
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2008 S Works Stumpjumper FSR Carbon, 2016 E Fat Titanium Bike Custom built by me.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 107 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post

You may protest that certain e-cruiser bikes require more watts to go 28 mph? Granted.

I'm not the one who made this unqualified, broad statement:
Well, let me qualify it for you then. The regs were written with what I said in mind and the e bike manufacturers generally go by those numbers. Are there exceptions? of course there are, and an exception is what you are trying to destroy my argument with, but I am not buying it. Some people in this thread are throwing out stuff that blatantly tells me they are ignorant on electric bicycles. For every bicycle that you just pointed out there are hundreds of $1,000 to $2,500 E bikes that might get to 28 mph if lucky.
Please note that many regular mountain bikes have down tubes fatter than what you are showing. It shows that you are trained in spotting E road bikes but not all e bikes.
My bad for making it sound as if I was stating some sort of law of physics. I also ride at the opposite end of the bike Sprectum from you.
KPREN is offline  
Old 09-11-22, 12:26 PM
  #155  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,998

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6822 Post(s)
Liked 2,134 Times in 1,156 Posts
I met as guy on a group ride with (I think) a new Cervelo .... He was getting ready to take it off the rack on the back of his car, and I was admiring it generally when I noticed that the rear hub was as big around as the largest cog and maybe i00 mm wide. I asked and yes, it was a built-in e-assist. No one would ever know unless they followed closely. I only noticed because I was looking closely at every feature.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-11-22, 01:48 PM
  #156  
Hiro11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,595

Bikes: 2022 Specialized Allez Sprint custom build, 2019 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0, 2018 Seven Mudhoney Pro custom build, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman, various others

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 771 Post(s)
Liked 441 Times in 227 Posts
I love the idea of ebikes: they increase the accessibility of cycling, they enable people of differing fitness to ride together, they are great for commuting, they open up a huge range of new adventures. Ebikes themselves are great.

On the other hand, I'm less enthusiastic about how I actually see eBikes being used. As usual, people have to ruin everything:
- the defintion of "ebike" is getting more and more murky. Sure there are laws on the books restricting speed, throttle and power, but these laws are completely unenforceable. Some of the contraptions I'm seeing are just electric motorcycles under another name being used where they have no business being used. You can buy inexpensive, rickety 1,500 watt efatbikes with easily defeated speed restrictors very easily: https://www.amazon.com/AOSTIRMOTOR-E.../dp/B08XXB8K9L I see this type of "bike" all the time, usually being ridden by kids. Riding something with 1,500 watts of output isn't following the intent of allowing ebikes on "no motor vehicles" paths. People always have to push things...
- physically able middle aged people joining group rides on an ebike because they are too lazy to actually pedal. Yes this is judgmental, deal with it. This doesn't happen on the racing groups I tend to ride with, but it's becoming very common on the more recreational groups I see. Why does this bother me? The whole point of a group ride is to get exercise. eBikes deny the very intent of a group ride. It's lying to yourself. Riding at 17-18 mph is not that hard, stop being lazy. Similarly, physically able people using 600+ watts of ebike power to blast up a technical mountain bike climb others spend years trying to clean. What is the point? Get a dirt bike if that's what you want to do.
- e-mountain bikers using "no motorized vehicle" trails that other riders spent years trying to gain access to. As the definition of an "ebike" is extremely fuzzy right now, this opens up all kinds of potential access issues that are just going to get worse as ebikes become ever more powerful.
- If you shortcut your way to speed by putting a motor on your bike, you haven't learned how to handle a bike at speed. For example, a guy on an ebike a couple of months ago who got irritated with me because I dared to pass him on a wide open rural gravel MUP at 22mph. He subsequently blasted past me, missed a turn and crashed into a tree. Moron.

Last edited by Hiro11; 09-11-22 at 01:53 PM.
Hiro11 is offline  
Likes For Hiro11:
Old 09-11-22, 02:06 PM
  #157  
TurboTrueno
Newbie
 
TurboTrueno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: Burnaby, BC
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Yea I don't understand E-bikes at all. Seems to defeat the entire purpose of riding. I'm sure they're fun of course
Spending $10k on a nice e-bike seems insane when you can get a sweet motorcycle of any variety at that price
TurboTrueno is offline  
Likes For TurboTrueno:
Old 09-11-22, 07:32 PM
  #158  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,998

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6822 Post(s)
Liked 2,134 Times in 1,156 Posts
$10 k for a wimpy ebike? I have a friend who got a one-owner 650 cc BMW adventure bike (on/off motorcycle) in great shape for about $7 K

On the other hand he laughs at me because my bike collection cost me about that much ......
Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 03:12 AM
  #159  
Herzlos
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 417

Bikes: Gravel, MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 481 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by TurboTrueno View Post
Yea I don't understand E-bikes at all. Seems to defeat the entire purpose of riding. I'm sure they're fun of course
Spending $10k on a nice e-bike seems insane when you can get a sweet motorcycle of any variety at that price
Not everyone has the same goals from riding, and I expect that particularly off road lots of people would love the idea of going trail/mountain biking without having to pedal so hard. Sales must be doing pretty well for a reason!
Herzlos is offline  
Likes For Herzlos:
Old 09-12-22, 03:14 AM
  #160  
Herzlos
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 417

Bikes: Gravel, MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 626 Post(s)
Liked 481 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
The whole point of a group ride is to get exercise.
Is it? Stationary bikes in the gym are for exercise, I always thought the point of group rides was socializing.
Herzlos is offline  
Likes For Herzlos:
Old 09-12-22, 03:57 AM
  #161  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,998

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6822 Post(s)
Liked 2,134 Times in 1,156 Posts
Common tactic employed in TV/online/cable commercials": at the outset a character states a problem .... which maybe doesn't exist, but who cares? "Don't you hate it when your laundry doesn't smell fresh right after you wash it?"

Yeah, I would hate that if that were ever a thing. But it isn't; it is calculated nonsense, meant to introduce a new and wholly unnecessary product, time- and heat-released laundry perfume, which "preserves the 'just-washed' scent for up to two weeks!!!" (as if no one would wash a garment more often than that if it had a bad odor? Whatever, none of this is real.) It is a common tactic---you create a perceived need for a product and then "solve the problem" with your "new and improved" product.

Much as with many threads .... OPs create an imaginary problem, exaggerate a problem, fictionalize a problem, and post here to get attention. Chain wax, platform pedals, e-bikes .... how Big Bike is forcing us to ride what we hate riding, and aliens (or foreigners) are preventing us from owning the recumbents we all secretly crave .... whatever.

Why can people sell perfume for the laundry which is washed with detergent containing perfume? Because people don't think.

If a person cannot ride an e-bike without hitting other people said person will not be riding an e-bike for long---said person will crash and get hurt. But ... no one is going to respond with great emotion to a thread about mundane and unconcerning situations .... so a little of the spice of exaggeration and the occasional flavorful fiction gets tossed in, and the resulting stew keeps us all stewing for several pages.

There are those trolls who are obnoxious and confrontational and love to pick fights and act superior .... and there is a more subtle form of fishing for attention which is not so objectionable but in fact has the same purpose, the same intent.

I just toss chum in the water to see the fish flop about chasing it .... but i for sure know when I am eating food versus chasing a lure -- or mixing metaphors.

Maybe we should put clipless pedals on e-bikes so the inept and immature will all fall over a lot and quit riding?
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 09-12-22, 05:51 AM
  #162  
KPREN
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Wadsworth, Ohio
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2008 S Works Stumpjumper FSR Carbon, 2016 E Fat Titanium Bike Custom built by me.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 107 Posts
Originally Posted by TurboTrueno View Post
Yea I don't understand E-bikes at all. Seems to defeat the entire purpose of riding. I'm sure they're fun of course
Spending $10k on a nice e-bike seems insane when you can get a sweet motorcycle of any variety at that price
Not hard to understand at all. 99% of the world's population would understand that an E bicycle is for getting from point A to point B without heavy exertion or exercise getting in the way.
I bought an E bicycle to expand adventure and recreation. I justify the E bicycle on the fun factor alone and nothing else. The E bicycle that I would love to have is $20k and that does not come with climate control, heated saddle and heated bar grips.
KPREN is offline  
Likes For KPREN:
Old 09-12-22, 06:39 AM
  #163  
CAT7RDR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 1,751

Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked 1,567 Times in 779 Posts
I treat e-bikes like motorcycles. I prefer to ride routes where I have little contact with either.
IMHO, they are noisy little beasts and I find both equally annoying. Only once have I had a friendly passing of an e-bike with an older man in the mountains of SoCal. He was switching his battery as I passed him.

Otherwise, it is noisy fat e-MTB's with 4" treads coming from behind me on a MUP. They are exceeding 20+mph and soft pedaling if at all.
Whatever, get your groove on and enjoy the outdoors but I do not want to mingle with you.
CAT7RDR is offline  
Likes For CAT7RDR:
Old 09-12-22, 07:01 AM
  #164  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,835

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2601 Post(s)
Liked 2,303 Times in 1,302 Posts
I think the reality is that most people never really wanted to pedal to start with.

Some folks on eBikes were riding regular bikes because there was no better alternative. They did’t WANT to pedal, they just had to.

Some folks on eBikes never rode normal bike much at all… Because they don’t like pedaling.

The overwhelming majority of eBikes I see are in urban settings and used for commuting/utility/transportation rather than fitness.
Kapusta is offline  
Likes For Kapusta:
Old 09-12-22, 07:22 AM
  #165  
boozergut
Full Member
 
boozergut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 402

Bikes: Kona Dew, Gary Fisher Paragon, Salsa Campeon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked 78 Times in 47 Posts
The saddest thing are the middle aged frumpy couples on ebikes. I just want to force them to listen to how my pedal bike ended my back pain, dropped my blood pressure 25 points, and helped me from becoming so fat that I cant get off the couch. Im not sure the industry nor the gubment has done much as far as promoting the health benefits of cycling.
boozergut is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 08:02 AM
  #166  
Tivoli
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Over here in Europe more and more school children are also riding e-bikes. I get it when you have to ride 15 KM (~10 miles?) a day to school and back, but other than that I don't really get it. How else are you going to build grit?
Tivoli is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 08:07 AM
  #167  
prj71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,232
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2696 Post(s)
Liked 965 Times in 634 Posts
Originally Posted by b88 View Post
Some say you get just as much exercise as riding a regular bike because ebike ppl tend to ride further distances than before.
It's not about the distance. It's about the effort. No way anyone on an e-bike gets the same exercise benefit as a regular bike.
prj71 is offline  
Likes For prj71:
Old 09-12-22, 08:17 AM
  #168  
prj71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,232
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2696 Post(s)
Liked 965 Times in 634 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I think the reality is that most people never really wanted to pedal to start with.

Some folks on eBikes were riding regular bikes because there was no better alternative. They did’t WANT to pedal, they just had to.

Some folks on eBikes never rode normal bike much at all… Because they don’t like pedaling.

The overwhelming majority of eBikes I see are in urban settings and used for commuting/utility/transportation rather than fitness.
Since I don't live in a large urban setting, I've been been now seeing more and more of them on the on the rail trails (gravel) and paved bike trails. I've also seen a few on the mountain bike trails in my area where they are allowed. I have yet to see them for commuting/utility/transportation. So far all I have seen is recreational use.

I've considered an e-bike for commuting to work so I won't show up to the office all sweaty. But that would be the only reason why.
prj71 is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 09:01 AM
  #169  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,036

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1579 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times in 776 Posts
Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
It's not about the distance. It's about the effort. No way anyone on an e-bike gets the same exercise benefit as a regular bike.
If they end up riding an e-bike more often than they would a regular bike, they will get a higher exercise benefit.

The exercise benefit of a bike that doesn't get ridden is zero.

--------

Metabolic and Cardiovascular Responses to a Simulated Commute on an E-Bike



The faster times and the lower perceived exertion associated with the e-bike may incentivize active transportation. Further, while the cardiometabolic responses (e.g., HR and V̇O2) were lower for the e-bike, they were indicative of being at or near “moderate intensity,” suggesting that e-bike use may still benefit health-related fitness.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat


Last edited by terrymorse; 09-12-22 at 09:42 AM.
terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 09-12-22, 09:42 AM
  #170  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 2,676

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 1,046 Times in 615 Posts
I am a people, I still love to pedal. I will not say never, but I do not see myself owning an e-bike. That is certainly open to change, given the right, or wrong, circumstances. If it becomes a way to keep me involved in cycling and outdoors, I would certainly consider it. However, for me, I just do not think it would the same for me as actually being the sole power source. The meditational aspect, the pedal stroke and the breathing, are a huge part of my cycling enjoyment. I will add, I believe, the feeling of accomplishment would be significantly lessened if powered by another source.
delbiker1 is offline  
Likes For delbiker1:
Old 09-12-22, 09:54 AM
  #171  
Daniel4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,344

Bikes: Sekine 1979 ten speed racer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1408 Post(s)
Liked 558 Times in 379 Posts
Originally Posted by boozergut View Post
The saddest thing are the middle aged frumpy couples on ebikes. I just want to force them to listen to how my pedal bike ended my back pain, dropped my blood pressure 25 points, and helped me from becoming so fat that I cant get off the couch. Im not sure the industry nor the gubment has done much as far as promoting the health benefits of cycling.
Let's put it this way, I first learned about the harms of smoking in the 1970s and today we still have people smoking.

No way can you force anybody to do something or quit something he just doesn't want to or not ready to. He has to convince himself just as my Dad did when he quit smoking after I left home.

So for those fat sedentary people who are on ebikes, I say that's a huge step because there still are many more still in their cars. I wouldn't push them too far because 1) they have removed themselves from traffic congestion; and 2) they are making bike lanes useful so that less motorists will be complaining that no one uses bike lanes. As for bad biking, that is no different from bad driving except it's not as fatal. So we all have to work on that together but not as separate issues.
Daniel4 is offline  
Likes For Daniel4:
Old 09-12-22, 09:58 AM
  #172  
prj71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,232
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2696 Post(s)
Liked 965 Times in 634 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
If they end up riding an e-bike more often than they would a regular bike, they will get a higher exercise benefit.
I don't disagree. But I'm not sure the typical e-bike person gets out there and rides more often than the non e-bike person.


But the cyclists’ results were not all uniform or constructive. A few riders’ efforts, especially when they used the higher assistance setting on the e-bikes, were too physiologically mild to count as moderate exercise. Almost everyone also burned about 30 percent fewer calories while e-biking than road riding — 344 to 422 calories per hour, on average, on an e-bike, versus 505 calories per hour on a regular bike — which may be a consideration if someone is hoping to use bike commuting to help drop weight.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/w...-workouts.html
prj71 is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 12:55 PM
  #173  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,908
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2756 Post(s)
Liked 1,927 Times in 1,203 Posts
Door to door selling is hard.
seypat is offline  
Old 09-12-22, 01:55 PM
  #174  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 2,551

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked 1,162 Times in 744 Posts
Some people prefer sailboats, others prefer motorboats.
smd4 is online now  
Old 09-12-22, 02:19 PM
  #175  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,908
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2756 Post(s)
Liked 1,927 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Some people prefer sailboats, others prefer motorboats.
Motorboating can be fun.
seypat is offline  
Likes For seypat:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.